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2017 CHEVROLET CAMARO ZL1 VS. 2017 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT350R: THE FOREVER WAR

roygriffin2020

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Between cars with essentially the same performance - if you do the math the GT350R runs within a couple percent of the lap times of the far more powerful car. Hell, even its straightline stats are within 5%. Although I'd really, really hate to see it happen, suppose the GT350R was given a few psi of boost, as a flip-side comparison to a blower-less ZL1 against the current R?

Except for run-what-ya-brung-and-hope-ya-brung-enough timed competition with something of monetary value at stake, that's close enough for it to come down to subjectives. So sure, if you're racing for money or contingencies it makes sense to choose based solely on performance (or at least performance potential within any rule set).

There's something neat about "unrefinement" that seems to be escaping you, where a car is built for a singular purpose and intentionally flies in the face of what more conventional cars are about. Goes against the grain, and makes no apologies. Wasn't this the direction that the 5th gen Z/28 was aimed in?

Unrefinement is what hotrodding used to be, before Pro Street and Pro Touring and hugely expensive professional builds entered the picture, and what the post-WWII/Korean conflict sports roadsters were. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about the low level of technical refinement then compared with now; just about how cars in those unrefined niches compared in an overall sense against the more mainstream cars of their day. Their simplicity relative to other cars was part of their appeal. But I guess you had to be closer to those segments of the automotive hobby to appreciate that sort of thing.


The way I see it, driving in an overall sense is one part car, one part driver, and one part "road", and these factors don't carry equal weight (or, obviously, carry the same weighting among different people). In the real world, I'd rather be the guy driving the nominally slower car running closer than expected to the faster car's times than be the guy in the faster car wondering why I didn't "beat" the slower car by more than I did (implications being more about the relative driving skills than theoretical car performances).


Norm
But if someone could get the Mustang GT with MagneRide, Sport Cup 2's, etc and put the optional new 5.2 Aluminator 570+ hp, 8000+ rpm motor in it; would that not be special like the GT350? I mean the engine IS the GT350 block and heads!!

http://performance.ford.com/enthusi...k-at-the-5-2l-aluminator-xs-crate-engine.html
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machsmith

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Haha man...feels good. Got out in my R yesterday tore around and it felt great. It's a great feeling that the R won the head to head with the zl1 and it's gonna feel even better when the gt500 does the same. I have a good feeling same guys will be on here with more (and different) excuses.
 

4V Mayhem

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But if someone is excelling (you can't spell) at those things and attained the same number on the same track, then wouldn't that be an experience at the same speed?
:lol::lol:

At the "you can't spell" comment!
 

Caballus

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Exactly, then no track times mean anything, they are all used for marketing to sell cars, and they don't count if they are not all on the same same day, same driver, same track according to MF's logic.
Somehow the conversation shifted from NĂĽrburgring (Nordschleife) times to all track times. Point is that the Nordschleife track, despite it's popularity, is not a good gauge for measuring car capabilities, especially when the cars are going to be used on US streets and tracks. There are much better units of measure.

Long Way to Go.jpg
 

JT1

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Somehow the conversation shifted from NĂĽrburgring (Nordschleife) times to all track times. Point is that the Nordschleife track, despite it's popularity, is not a good gauge for measuring car capabilities, especially when the cars are going to be used on US streets and tracks. There are much better units of measure.

Long Way to Go.jpg
Awesome picture, where was it taken?
 

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4V Mayhem

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It's a great feeling that the R won the head to head with the zl1 and it's gonna feel even better when the gt500 does the same. I have a good feeling same guys will be on here with more (and different) excuses.
When is the GT500 coming out again?
 

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Haha man...feels good. Got out in my R yesterday tore around and it felt great. It's a great feeling that the R won the head to head with the zl1 and it's gonna feel even better when the gt500 does the same. I have a good feeling same guys will be on here with more (and different) excuses.
Reminder: The ZL1 wins in about every performance category in the test. The GT350R only won this comparison off of subjective opinion. I here more excuses from you guys. We can all coexist. One car had to be faster. I don't know why this is so hard to accept.
 

mdmoore23

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You keep forgetting which site you're on. How about YOU give credit where it's due and concede that there's more to the experience of driving a car than simply a lap time and the R has been independently tested as acceling at those things?

Been funny watching you spin your wheels here (car pun!!!) You must be one of those guys who travels to away games to obnoxiously cheer on his favorite team...and then that lonely, nervous walk back to your car after the game is over.....
I have already conceded that and understand that's the reason the R won the comparison. I've said that several times now. I'm not gonna expect you to know that since this thread is so lengthy. Plus, I was only responding to him because he made such a bone headed comment. "Unstrap the blower". Yes, they've already done that. And gtfo with this "forgetting what site you're on" crap! Are we in gangs or something? Can I, as a car guy, not have interest in any car besides my own? You keep forgetting a poster here started this thread. It is a comparison between a Mustang and a Camaro. Yet you have a problem with there actually being some people who think the Camaro is better.
 

Minn19

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Reminder: The ZL1 wins in about every performance category in the test. The GT350R only won this comparison off of subjective opinion. I here more excuses from you guys. We can all coexist. One car had to be faster. I don't know why this is so hard to accept.
Geezus dude, we all accept it is faster. Most of us don't really give a shit for the reasons you can't accept either.

Also, most of us here have the means to add it to the stable or trade in our GT350s tomorrow for one. A few will, but again most of us won't for the reasons that have beaten to death here.
 
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4V Mayhem

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I have already conceded that and understand that's the reason the R won the comparison. I've said that several times now. I'm not gonna expect you to know that since this thread is so lengthy. Plus, I was only responding to him because he made such a bone headed comment. "Unstrap the blower". Yes, they've already done that. And gtfo with this "forgetting what site you're on" crap! Are we in gangs or something? Can I, as a car guy, not have interest in any car besides my own? You keep forgetting a poster here started this thread. It is a comparison between a Mustang and a Camaro. Yet you have a problem with there actually being some people who think the Camaro is better.

Geezus dude, we all accept it is faster. Most of us don't really give a shit for the reasons you can't accept either.

Most of us here have the means to add it to the stable or trade in our GT350s tomorrow for one. A few will, but again most of us won't for the reasons that have beaten to death here.
I think the most important thing is that on an individual level each person gets the car that they feel is right for them. Regardless of which car wins a comparison or which car does better on a track. Choose the car that you happen to like better for whatever reason. There are people who bought a GT350 and then switched to a ZL1 or Z06 or Hellcat. And there are those who bought a Hellcat and then switched to a GT350 or ZL1. And so on for every car out there. At the end of the day, if you're happy in your car, then that is what matters. Lots of guys here love their GT350s and GT350Rs regardless of what happened on the track. And lots of people love their ZL1s regardless of who MT crowned the winner. Talking about all of this when not in light of how it affected your purchase or enjoyment is nothing more than childish picking on each other.
 

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But if someone could get the Mustang GT with MagneRide, Sport Cup 2's, etc and put the optional new 5.2 Aluminator 570+ hp, 8000+ rpm motor in it; would that not be special like the GT350? I mean the engine IS the GT350 block and heads!!

http://performance.ford.com/enthusi...k-at-the-5-2l-aluminator-xs-crate-engine.html
I'm not quite sure where you're headed with that line of thought.

If the idea is to take what could potentially be a full-featured 'regular' GT and give it GT350 performance stats at least in a straight line, it's still trying to be everything to everybody (more like the ZL1 in character). Fast? Sure. Special? Probably. But its focus would still be somewhat fuzzy rather than sharp, and that's a subjective point the you either 'get' or you don't.

While I can't fault anybody for not being able to make the concept of "less = more" work for themselves, I would like to think that people can step outside themselves far enough to acknowledge that others can and do see things in a minimalist way. It's one of those subjectives that would lead a road-course-oriented enthusiast to pick the GT350 over the marginally faster/quicker ZL1 in the first place.


Norm
 

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Geezus dude, we all accept it is faster. Most of us don't really give a shit for the reasons you can't accept either.

Most of us here have the means to add it to the stable or trade in our GT350s tomorrow for one. A few will, but again most of us won't for the reasons that have beaten to death here.
Trust me. I know. But as long as people here keep responding to me with ignorant posts, I'm going to keep doing the same. Do you not read the posts before my responses? For instance the fella saying what would happen if the 6.2 didn't have that blower. Well, duh the naturally aspirated LT1. We've already touched on all the relative points. Now it's just bench racing, fanboy hate, and bickering, but I'll play the game as long as you all care to do so
 

roygriffin2020

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I'm not quite sure where you're headed with that line of thought.

If the idea is to take what could potentially be a full-featured 'regular' GT and give it GT350 performance stats at least in a straight line, it's still trying to be everything to everybody (more like the ZL1 in character). Fast? Sure. Special? Probably. But its focus would still be somewhat fuzzy rather than sharp, and that's a subjective point the you either 'get' or you don't.

While I can't fault anybody for not being able to make the concept of "less = more" work for themselves, I would like to think that people can step outside themselves far enough to acknowledge that others can and do see things in a minimalist way. It's one of those subjectives that would lead a road-course-oriented enthusiast to pick the GT350 over the marginally faster/quicker ZL1 in the first place.


Norm
My point is the peeps on here say the GT350 is more "special" because of the 8K rpm motor. So Ford offers now a substantial increase in hp (570+) 8k rpm motor that anyone can get in a GT with it having Magneride and the same sticky tires and handling, which could be very close to the same visceral feeling of the GT350 at a much lower cost. Of course it would not have the same "R" snob appeal.
 

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My point is the peeps on here say the GT350 is more "special" because of the 8K rpm motor. So Ford offers now a substantial increase in hp (570+) 8k rpm motor that anyone can get in a GT with it having Magneride and the same sticky tires and handling, which could be very close to the same visceral feeling of the GT350 at a much lower cost. Of course it would not have the same "R" snob appeal.
When you truly grasp the "less is more" concept, you'll understand that what the 'R' is, isn't about the "R" tag at all. The snobs, as you put it, would be those who buy one just to be seen in or to boast over drinks at the club about owning.


Norm
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