2016 Mustang Order Guide

[Cascadia_302]

The Ford OEM Torsen in the S197 and now the S550 is the most robust Torsen design of them all. They will take a fair amount of drag race launch beating where the aftermarket ones won't.

It will to a point but remember the Torsen needs to slip to function properly.
Slicks tend to prolong the point of slipping so much that the impact torque sent through the Torsen to the other tire is of a larger magnitude than what the unit was designed for in the first place.
Enough of these high torque spikes and the unit will prematurely fail.
If I had the choice of an LSD for an serious drag car I would choose the Wavetrac over the Torsen but not until the Torsen I had failed first!
Obviously many dedicated drag cars end up using spools.

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[Mr Monte]

There is no actual power difference between the 2011-12 GT and the 2013-14. Basically, just marketing in a way.

For me the improvement in the low end performance of the 2013 over the 11-12 GT is what it took to get me to buy. I was told by a Ford tech the 2013 GT got different cams, tuning & slight gear changes in the transmission in order to improve lower rpm drive-ability.

I didn't even buy my 2010 GT until after I drove a 2011 GT. Below 3,000 rpms the 10 GT was the higher performing car but 4,000 rpms & above the 11 GT dominates.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

For me the improvement in the low end performance of the 2013 over the 11-12 GT is what it took to get me to buy. I was told by a Ford tech the 2013 GT got different cams, tuning & slight gear changes in the transmission in order to improve lower rpm drive-ability.

I didn't even buy my 2010 GT until after I drove a 2011 GT. Below 3,000 rpms the 10 GT was the higher performing car but 4,000 rpms & above the 11 GT dominates.

Wow, there's a lot wrong with your statements above. I don't even know how to respond to your comments, but I'll try...

I've owned an '07 GT, '11 GT, and '14 GT, so trust me when I tell you that 5.0L 4V > 4.6L 3V at all rpm's (TiVCT, more displacement, higher CR, etc). As far as '11/'12 vs '13/'14? They all dyno similar #'s. Head over to S197forum.com and they'd laugh your comments right off their forum.

 

[EXP Jawa]

It will to a point but remember the Torsen needs to slip to function properly.
Slicks tend to prolong the point of slipping so much that the impact torque sent through the Torsen to the other tire is of a larger magnitude than what the unit was designed for in the first place.
Enough of these high torque spikes and the unit will prematurely fail.
If I had the choice of an LSD for an serious drag car I would choose the Wavetrac over the Torsen but not until the Torsen I had failed first!
Obviously many dedicated drag cars end up using spools.

I think you need to review the definition of a torque-biasing differential. Differentials of this type - whether they're Torsen, AAM, GKN, Wavetrac, Eaton, etc - bias torque statically, as well as dynamically. They absolutely do not require wheelslip to function. They generate internal friction to prevent differentiation from happening in the first place. Its interesting that you would pick the Wavetrac over the Torsen for this reason, when, fundamentally, they both have the same behavior in this regard. They're both parallel-axis, helical gear differentials. One happens to have a doodad to help out when one wheel is completely uploaded, but that does not change the base operation. Both proactively attempt to prevent slip from beginning. Maybe you meant that Torsen requires some amount of traction on both tires to function. That much is true, though largely moot today due to effective brake based traction control systems that are never truly off. But that aside, that is an area where Wavetrac potentially has an advantage. Their device ought to help that very specific condition if it transitions smoothly enough. I do wonder about how the Wavetrac's lock up cam would fair in an OEM spin abuse or fatigue test.

As slicks increase the coefficient of friction to the ground, they also increase the skid torque of a vehicle, thereby increasing the magnitude of an impact spike at launch. Its true that this will shift the T-n curve, and the differential will not be able to take as many spikes before failure. But this is true of anybody's product, regardless of type. More load = shorter life. It is also true of everything else in the drivetrain, from the clutch disc back to the wheel flanges. Slicks make life harsher. I'm not sure why you'd single out Torsen for this. Everything has design limits.

This ties to my earlier point - the Torsen for the S550 was actually validated to a specific requirement of a given number of spikes, at a specific impact load. This test, I understand, it passed with flying colors. What level of impact was the Wavetrac designed for? Does it meet the OEM requirement? Maybe. Does it meet it for GT350, who's axle impact torque is even higher? That's the point - the Wavetrac may well be far stronger than the Torsen, but with aftermarket parts, there is rarely a standard that parts are held to, it terms of design targets. At least here, the design limits are known to Ford, and they've found the part to be sufficient and will stand behind it. If someone posts credible data that shows the Wavetrac to be superior, I'll be among the first to acknowledge it. But until then, I'm not going to assume anything of the sort.

To that end, I will say that it would be very interesting to be able to compare the number of drag launches both differentials can sustain before failing. The trick there is finding a car that never changes set up and driver that's very consistent. Otherwise, variables throw the results out the window, scientifically speaking. Also, part of the reason dedicated drag cars often use spools is tied to their simplicity and relative light weight, combined with lack of need of differentiation. They are an optimized solution to the need, but that doesn't mean other product types can't handle it.

 

[Mountain376]

The aftermarket Torsen diffs were designed 20 years ago, when Mustangs still had pushrods and 300+ HP was exotic. The design targets were much higher for S197, and higher still for S550, so its a lot different now. Its not easy to package the kind of torque density that the car now requires...

Completely agreed.

For me the improvement in the low end performance of the 2013 over the 11-12 GT is what it took to get me to buy. I was told by a Ford tech the 2013 GT got different cams, tuning & slight gear changes in the transmission in order to improve lower rpm drive-ability.

I didn't even buy my 2010 GT until after I drove a 2011 GT. Below 3,000 rpms the 10 GT was the higher performing car but 4,000 rpms & above the 11 GT dominates.

In regards to the 5.0L differences - absolutely not. I know for 100% fact.
In regards to the 4.6L vs 5.0L, I know what you're saying as I've driven both, but actual track performance does not lie.

I think you need to review the definition of a torque-biasing differential. Differentials of this type - whether they're Torsen, AAM, GKN, Wavetrac, Eaton, etc - bias torque statically, as well as dynamically. They absolutely do not require wheelslip to function. They generate internal friction to prevent differentiation from happening in the first place. Its interesting that you would pick the Wavetrac over the Torsen for this reason, when, fundamentally, they both have the same behavior in this regard. They're both parallel-axis, helical gear differentials. One happens to have a doodad to help out when one wheel is completely uploaded, but that does not change the base operation. Both proactively attempt to prevent slip from beginning. Maybe you meant that Torsen requires some amount of traction on both tires to function. That much is true, though largely moot today due to effective brake based traction control systems that are never truly off. But that aside, that is an area where Wavetrac potentially has an advantage. Their device ought to help that very specific condition if it transitions smoothly enough. I do wonder about how the Wavetrac's lock up cam would fair in an OEM spin abuse or fatigue test.

As slicks increase the coefficient of friction to the ground, they also increase the skid torque of a vehicle, thereby increasing the magnitude of an impact spike at launch. Its true that this will shift the T-n curve, and the differential will not be able to take as many spikes before failure. But this is true of anybody's product, regardless of type. More load = shorter life. It is also true of everything else in the drivetrain, from the clutch disc back to the wheel flanges. Slicks make life harsher. I'm not sure why you'd single out Torsen for this. Everything has design limits.

This ties to my earlier point - the Torsen for the S550 was actually validated to a specific requirement of a given number of spikes, at a specific impact load. This test, I understand, it passed with flying colors. What level of impact was the Wavetrac designed for? Does it meet the OEM requirement? Maybe. Does it meet it for GT350, who's axle impact torque is even higher? That's the point - the Wavetrac may well be far stronger than the Torsen, but with aftermarket parts, there is rarely a standard that parts are held to, it terms of design targets. At least here, the design limits are known to Ford, and they've found the part to be sufficient and will stand behind it. If someone posts credible data that shows the Wavetrac to be superior, I'll be among the first to acknowledge it. But until then, I'm not going to assume anything of the sort.

To that end, I will say that it would be very interesting to be able to compare the number of drag launches both differentials can sustain before failing. The trick there is finding a car that never changes set up and driver that's very consistent. Otherwise, variables throw the results out the window, scientifically speaking. Also, part of the reason dedicated drag cars often use spools is tied to their simplicity and relative light weight, combined with lack of need of differentiation. They are an optimized solution to the need, but that doesn't mean other product types can't handle it.

Awesome response.

 

[Spartan]

Completely agreed.



In regards to the 5.0L differences - absolutely not. I know for 100% fact.
In regards to the 4.6L vs 5.0L, I know what you're saying as I've driven both, but actual track performance does not lie.



Awesome response.

Hey guys...can we keep this thread on topic...which is 2016 ordering please.

 

[marcoinpb]

Ordering 2015 GT Performance Convertible 6M

Is it likely that a 3.55 differential can be ordered in place of the stated 3.73 for the perforformace package?

 

[EXP Jawa]

Is it likely that a 3.55 differential can be ordered in place of the stated 3.73 for the perforformace package?

That's not an available combination as I read it. The 3.73 ratio is packaged only with the Torsen diff and the Torsen diff is only packaged with the 3.73:1 gear set. Until the Sterling Axle plant adds another build combination, that won't change. I doubt - but could be wrong - that the Mustang team vehicle dynamics folks would sign off on a version of the PP without the Torsen, since it was tailored to the performance characteristics that they needed for that package. But again, I could be wrong - marketing has done stranger things...

 

[Spartan]

Is it likely that a 3.55 differential can be ordered in place of the stated 3.73 for the perforformace package?

I don't think it's an option for the '16. You could easily get the dealer to do the swap and pay for the parts/labor.

 

[marcoinpb]

Thank you Rick. For a car that will not be a DD, it really will not make much difference. It just strikes me that a 3.55 is plenty low ratio for any driving. With the PP having the same exact torque(at least in 15), I don't see why the heavier piece is a necessary piece. Obviously, it does not need to be rational to be a requirement.

We are approaching a time when V8, manual shift, non-turbo, high performance engines will not be available. Already hard to order Porsche, BMW or Cadillac manuals.

Compared to my last Mustang ordered (87 LX 5.0 5M), FOMOCO has gone overboard with the forced option packages. Perhaps, by this strategy, they save $2.18 per car but gain BIG additional revenue by the cram-down on the packages.

 

[Old 5 Oh]

I think I might be in the market for a set of the nickel PP wheels, and maybe the tires.

 

[Mountain376]

Hey guys...can we keep this thread on topic...which is 2016 ordering please.

Sorry... :bolt:

 

[Cascadia_302]

I think you need to review the definition of a torque-biasing differential. Differentials of this type - whether they're Torsen, AAM, GKN, Wavetrac, Eaton, etc - bias torque statically, as well as dynamically. They absolutely do not require wheelslip to function. They generate internal friction to prevent differentiation from happening in the first place. Its interesting that you would pick the Wavetrac over the Torsen for this reason, when, fundamentally, they both have the same behavior in this regard. They're both parallel-axis, helical gear differentials. One happens to have a doodad to help out when one wheel is completely uploaded, but that does not change the base operation. Both proactively attempt to prevent slip from beginning. Maybe you meant that Torsen requires some amount of traction on both tires to function. That much is true, though largely moot today due to effective brake based traction control systems that are never truly off. But that aside, that is an area where Wavetrac potentially has an advantage. Their device ought to help that very specific condition if it transitions smoothly enough. I do wonder about how the Wavetrac's lock up cam would fair in an OEM spin abuse or fatigue test.

As slicks increase the coefficient of friction to the ground, they also increase the skid torque of a vehicle, thereby increasing the magnitude of an impact spike at launch. Its true that this will shift the T-n curve, and the differential will not be able to take as many spikes before failure. But this is true of anybody's product, regardless of type. More load = shorter life. It is also true of everything else in the drivetrain, from the clutch disc back to the wheel flanges. Slicks make life harsher. I'm not sure why you'd single out Torsen for this. Everything has design limits.

This ties to my earlier point - the Torsen for the S550 was actually validated to a specific requirement of a given number of spikes, at a specific impact load. This test, I understand, it passed with flying colors. What level of impact was the Wavetrac designed for? Does it meet the OEM requirement? Maybe. Does it meet it for GT350, who's axle impact torque is even higher? That's the point - the Wavetrac may well be far stronger than the Torsen, but with aftermarket parts, there is rarely a standard that parts are held to, it terms of design targets. At least here, the design limits are known to Ford, and they've found the part to be sufficient and will stand behind it. If someone posts credible data that shows the Wavetrac to be superior, I'll be among the first to acknowledge it. But until then, I'm not going to assume anything of the sort.

To that end, I will say that it would be very interesting to be able to compare the number of drag launches both differentials can sustain before failing. The trick there is finding a car that never changes set up and driver that's very consistent. Otherwise, variables throw the results out the window, scientifically speaking. Also, part of the reason dedicated drag cars often use spools is tied to their simplicity and relative light weight, combined with lack of need of differentiation. They are an optimized solution to the need, but that doesn't mean other product types can't handle it.

I wasn't singling out the Torsen, it was more about the fact that the Torsen is better suited for road race over drag. I think its great that Ford even offers it, in fact I was tickled pink when they said they were going to use it with the S550 PP.
I wish they would offer it in an auto car but I bet they won't do it that way.
Now relative to the slipping, that was info from a Torsen rep when asked by a member of another mustang forum (which one I cannot recall and cannot find the link to but I copied the text) about the Torsen for strip use, this rep referred to it as as needing to slip and was in reference to the use of the Torsen for serious drag applications. I agree with that it didn't really make sense the way he described the the slipping part due to the Torsens functionality.
Here is what I saved:

[FONT=&quot]Re: Torsen T2R Recommendations... [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Finally got a response from Torsen today

Bill, you'll be interested. He's saying to go with the higher-priced 2.7 bias Torsen T2R used in the BOSS Laguna (and also the BOSS R). Here's his response:

---

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The unit found in the current BOSS Mustang would work best for your vehicles.
That particular unit was designed to be more robust because of the Laguna
requirements. Will you be running slicks or street legal slicks on you cars? [[/FONT][FONT=&quot]edit: bold is mine]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for the question is that the Torsen needs to slip in order to
function properly. Slicks tend to prolong the point of slipping so much so that
the impact torque sent through the Torsen to the other tire is of a larger
magnitude than what the unit was designed for in the first place. Enough of
these high torque spikes and the unit will prematurely fail.

Thanks for the question and interest in Torsen!

[FONT=&quot]OK, no more from me on this Torsen thing in the thread![/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[EXP Jawa]

I wasn't singling out the Torsen, it was more about the fact that the Torsen is better suited for road race over drag. I think its great that Ford even offers it, in fact I was tickled pink when they said they were going to use it with the S550 PP.
I wish they would offer it in an auto car but I bet they won't do it that way.
Now relative to the slipping, that was info from a Torsen rep when asked by a member of another mustang forum (which one I cannot recall and cannot find the link to but I copied the text) about the Torsen for strip use, this rep referred to it as as needing to slip and was in reference to the use of the Torsen for serious drag applications. I agree with that it didn't really make sense the way he described the the slipping part due to the Torsens functionality.
Here is what I saved:

[FONT=&quot]Re: Torsen T2R Recommendations... [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Finally got a response from Torsen today

Bill, you'll be interested. He's saying to go with the higher-priced 2.7 bias Torsen T2R used in the BOSS Laguna (and also the BOSS R). Here's his response:

---

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The unit found in the current BOSS Mustang would work best for your vehicles.
That particular unit was designed to be more robust because of the Laguna
requirements. Will you be running slicks or street legal slicks on you cars? [[/FONT][FONT=&quot]edit: bold is mine]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for the question is that the Torsen needs to slip in order to
function properly. Slicks tend to prolong the point of slipping so much so that
the impact torque sent through the Torsen to the other tire is of a larger
magnitude than what the unit was designed for in the first place. Enough of
these high torque spikes and the unit will prematurely fail.

Thanks for the question and interest in Torsen!

[FONT=&quot]OK, no more from me on this Torsen thing in the thread![/FONT]
[/FONT]

I understand why this confused you, but the info is a bit off. It is unfortunate that it came from Torsen, because, it steered you and whomever else wrong.

Agreed that Torsen is generally better suited for road racing / autocross. I just wanted to point out that if its used in drag racing, it isn't going to crumble like some think.

Also agreed to stop discussing in this thread. But I'm happy to discuss elsewhere...

 

[phil1336]

Still no Sirius Satellite Radio available for Base V6 Convertible in 16` even as an optional add on with the 051A Package. For 2016, Base EB 2.3 still gets 2 Cloth Interior choices, Ebony Black and Dark Ceramic while the Base V6 Fastback/Coupe and Convertible remains only available with Ebony Black Cloth Interior. Whats that all about? Cost savings? Glad I didn`t wait an extra year simply to get SYNC3 which only applies anyway to Premium Trim levels. So much about the 3.7 V6 being quickly eliminated too!

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