2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

Here is a pretty good article, here they were specifically told that the z28 should not be used as a daily driver. The video of this hot lap at Milford ended at 1:59.99 (Similar to the claimed GT500 lap). Again, the Camaro has an editor in the car and the driver took it easy.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/16/2014-chevy-camaro-z28-deep-dive-review-video/

Does anyone really believe the GT500 ran a 1:59.93 after seeing the z28 do exactly the same timed laps? They just pretty much busted themselves...

If he was giving it hell, I would understand. In the 1:59.99 lap, he doesn't even start giving it gas until he ask the editor "Ready to Go?"

Why can't they just be honest about things? They also claim they will be headed back to Nurburgring to perhaps get a better time. Another clue that they were not happy with the 7:37.

maybe 3,000 to 4,000 Z/28 models over the next two years.

Helloooooooo big MSRP and dealer markups...

Engineers did confirm that buyers will have the option to leave the A/C and full set of speakers intact.

Another pricey option I'll bet... Weight will be close to 4000lbs with AC and full speakers if it is already 3837lbs right now. Another let down I see...

Tweaks are still being made, and final numbers are forthcoming. Who knows, maybe a quicker 'Ring time will yet be achieved.

Wow, plan on running even more cage and a big tune? Remember, this thing should be as close to OEM as possible when you do lap times. The whole point is having a fast OEM car is to compete (No) and be capable of reproducing the advertised times. Nobody can ever challenge their Ring times, tourist days don't allow full laps. You have to pull into Gate C every lap. There are speed limits on Nurburgring too, right on the main 3km straight too.

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[thePill]

Agreed. Which is why I'm curious to see what the Alpha platform does for the 6th Gen. Camaro.

Baylor, can you help circulate my rendition of that 3rd Gen influenced 6th Gen? I fused the C7 Corvette with elements from the Camaro's 2nd, 3rd and 4th Generations... I feel the Camaro should adopt more Corvette cues to stay away from Chevy's corporate grill. I believe that is the direction they are going... I have no feedback here, or very little when it comes to Camaro.

Edit:

I couldn't get past the Brembo brakes. They're 394 x 36mm in the front and 390 x 32mm in the back. Obviously I wasn't the one doing the braking, but they were more than capable around the curves. And you could smell every bit of them in between drives.

This confirms that both the front and rear disc brake diameter are too large for all major road racing organizations Pro-Am. The largest allowed is SCCA's 380mm rule, to even run that you need a waiver past 355. Also, it appears the brakes were boiling during those Milford media runs...

THIS IS UNFORTUNATE... This is Jalopnik on the weight, the statement came from Chevrolet,

First, engineers took out all the weight. The Z/28 ended up weighing 64 pounds less than the ZL1. To further differentiate it from the ZL1, engineers sought to create as many Z/28-specific parts as possible.

That means the 2014 z28 weighs 4056lbs!!! YIKES!!!! http://jalopnik.com/why-chevy-built-destroyed-and-finally-rebuilt-the-cama-1445804721

Car and Driver reported that the LS& weighs 64lbs less than the LSA. The LSA weigh 550-560lbs, the LS3 weighs 418. That puts the LS7 around 500lbs, that's not a lightweight engine at all if true. The Coyote weighs 429lbs, the new LT1 with DI and VCT weighs 436lbs. Should have went with the LT1. AC weighs 28lbs btw.

Speaking of the engine, it’s no secret the LS7 was chosen because it’s 64 pounds lighter than the LSA found in the ZL1.

Autoblog says 3837lbs... probably dry too...

So, who's the target customer? It can't really be driven every day (again, Chevy flat out told us that it shouldn't be), and a more powerful ZL1 offers better refinement and more creature comforts.

So, why are they changing their minds now? It was suppose to be a street car I thought, now they say NOT to drive it daily. This thing could end up being almost as much as the Boss 302S... I'd get the 3200lbs/444hp former SCCA GTS Champion Boss 302. Slashgear says the same.

Overall, the Z/28 weighs in at 3,836 pounds, and has a 7.59 pound/horsepower ratio.

This true track car uses the same tire size but, for some odd reason...

19x11 front, 19x11.5 rear wheels (weight, center of gravity, rear tire handling at the limit)

No rotating the tires, kinda defeats the purpose of a boxed setup.



There are some very valid points being tossed around over on Camaro5. I like this one...

I would love to own a Z/28 but not at $70K plus. At that point I would look at a C7 Z51. Specific to the wet lap (or partial wet lap); don't you think after 10 hours and 1,000 miles on the track they would have at least 1 hero run on a dry track recorded? That does seem odd they would mention the quicker run; yet not record it. We can speculate all we want; but the lap time stands until they record a better time. Rules of the 'Ring, right?

Hell yeah $70k is a lot and you can't race it anywhere. He brings up the question about the rain and 7:37 Ring time. If Chevy truly did put in 10 hot lap hours and 1000 miles (both are 75-77 laps), then where is the faster time without rain? Chevrolet released a statement about the testing...

Chevrolet themselves confirmed that indeed the fastest lap was 7:37.47 out of the 10 hours/1000 miles and 75 laps of testing at Nurburgring.

• Z/28 undergoes 10 hours or 1,000 miles of testing at Nordschleife
• Fastest lap completed in 7:37.40 in rainy conditions

Another good point...

GM should have put more separation between the 2 cars especially for the money.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Long day I'll check these posts in detail tomorrow. Need to pay attention to the gf..... btw the videos aren't working on Tapatalk for some reason.

Pic looks good Pill, looks a little too much like the C7 IMHO.

 

[Norm Peterson]

If the Z/28 really is up there at 4000 lbs, that is truly disappointing. Even though I'd still rather have a stripped 4000 lb car than a car at the same weight loaded with features that I would never use or that I would actively not even want present on my car.

I thought that the LS7's weight was more in the neighborhood of 450 - 460 lbs, 475 tops.

I'm a little less concerned about the 1/2" difference in wheel widths - it appears to be a way of maintaining a little near-limit understeer without throwing away front grip to get it. The less expensive and more common 1LE runs a 1" difference . . .


Norm

 

[thePill]

If the Z/28 really is up there at 4000 lbs, that is truly disappointing. Even though I'd still rather have a stripped 4000 lb car than a car at the same weight loaded with features that I would never use or that I would actively not even want present on my car.

I thought that the LS7's weight was more in the neighborhood of 450 - 460 lbs, 475 tops.

I'm a little less concerned about the 1/2" difference in wheel widths - it appears to be a way of maintaining a little near-limit understeer without throwing away front grip to get it. The less expensive and more common 1LE runs a 1" difference . . .


Norm

The AC unit and condensor shed 28lbs, so did the use of CC brakes vs. standard disc. (28lbs but no mention of a two piece). I would have traded the CC brakes for slightly smaller two piece brakes. 380mm cast iron disc/aluminum hat would have made sanctioning the z28 easier.

I actually read some of Motor Authority's report last night.

Today we're showing you what it's like to ride shotgun in the car as it's flung around the Milford Road Course at General Motors' Proving Grounds. The driver stated that he was only running at 8/10ths, yet we still managed to nearly clip 150 mph on the main straight.

This means they ran just as fast as the Mustang's on that particular lap.

I'm gonna have to go ahead and say they didn't really ring the GT500 out. I'm not sure I can even trust any of their own Camaro times.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1087767_2014-camaro-z-28-laps-the-milford-road-course-video



Basically they decided to run a fully caged z28 against a 3 year old, stock uncaged Boss 302LS. I doubt the ZL1 and 1LE were caged as well.

 

[thePill]

Edit: Nevermind, Youtube went down.

Here are the other ride alongs, all running 1:59-2:00.



In the last video, they say the Silver z28 is the Nurburgring car.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Okay, I need you guys to pay attention here... Watch the video below, it doesn't have the 1:53 run but, the z28 does do a 1:59. Pay very close attention how he drives the car during the lap. Slow corners that he coast around, just slow speeds in general.

IS THIS HOW YOU GUYS GOT A 1:59.97 out of the GT500!?!?! Why not show the record run of the Milford z28? Why not???
the 1:59.66 Lap starts at 0:32.

Now, after seeing them run a 1:59, then claim the GT500 ran a similar time just isn't sitting well with me. The lap starts at :32 seconds, he goes right into a turn and ***** foots it through.

My issue is, if the z28 is coasting along in some portions of the track and got a 1:59.66, I can see a coasting '13 GT500 pull a 1:59.97 the way they are driving. This is the most tasteless act of marketing to date...

Wait, I don't understand here. You're saying they are half assing the Z/28? IF that's what you're saying then yes they could have half assed the GT500 or any other car too. BUT if they're half assing their own product it doesn't make sense. Maybe I misunderstood you??

Pausing the video of the Z/28 and Boss overlay it definitely doesn't look like the Boss has a cage in it. However it also doesn't look like there is one in the Camaro, but maybe if the Camaro's windows were more than just a couple of slits it would be easier to tell.. lol.

 

[thePill]

Wait, I don't understand here. You're saying they are half assing the Z/28? IF that's what you're saying then yes they could have half assed the GT500 or any other car too. BUT if they're half assing their own product it doesn't make sense. Maybe I misunderstood you??

Pausing the video of the Z/28 and Boss overlay it definitely doesn't look like the Boss has a cage in it. However it also doesn't look like there is one in the Camaro, but maybe if the Camaro's windows were more than just a couple of slits it would be easier to tell.. lol.

I'm saying they literally beat the supposed '13 GT500's lap time while giving an 80% tour lap to an editor... They were just cruising during the first 30 seconds of the lap, I can't see how a GT500 would have ran a 1:59 with the driver actually making an effort. After I seen a 1:59 from the z28, there is no way they were pushing any car after 1:57 in that list.

The Boss LS has an X-Brace, I don't see a cage at all. That is the regular lap belt you see. They most likely used the caged cars for high speed attempts.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Ahhhh gotcha.

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[PowerUp]

It would seem the only current Mustang to approach the Z/28 in on-track performance might be the very rare and expensive (and non-street-legal) BOSS 302-S that sells for $97,000 with its available $2,410 BBS forged wheels and $4,500 welded seams (who wants a race car without welded seams?!).

An added cage and other safety features also add weight so, along with all the weight of the electronics GM Engineering included in the 'Ring version, the mule probably weighs more than a showroom version will. And weight eats power.

With your knowledge of the 'Ring, Pill, you know the track is generally filled with other manufacturers' prototypes. By gentleman's agreement, there are only certain windows of time during the day when in-car cameras are on, for all the world to maybe see (otherwise, they rely on telemetry). If that window happens to be when a company is trying to set their best time, and the weather doesn't cooperate fully, "Oh well". Less than ultimate times ensue.

The Z/28 is NASA-legal, and therefore sanctioning-legal, for racing. With a slightly smaller front rotor, which no doubt will be homologated (if necessary), other sanctioning bodies will follow. What sanctioning body would want to avoid the classic "best Ford vs. best Chev" showdown?! The question should be: What will Ford bring to this gunfight? Hopefully not a knife.

As for the Milford times, if Randy Pobst himself had driven each car, the times would be disputed by those who choose to disbelieve. Neutral territory tests will ensue. And you'll still have your day in court to pick those tests/times apart. Again, what will Ford send as their representative?

 

[thePill]

It would seem the only current Mustang to approach the Z/28 in on-track performance might be the very rare and expensive (and non-street-legal) BOSS 302-S that sells for $97,000 with its available $2,410 BBS forged wheels and $4,500 welded seams (who wants a race car without welded seams?!).

An added cage and other safety features also add weight so, along with all the weight of the electronics GM Engineering included in the 'Ring version, the mule probably weighs more than a showroom version will. And weight eats power.

With your knowledge of the 'Ring, Pill, you know the track is generally filled with other manufacturers' prototypes. By gentleman's agreement, there are only certain windows of time during the day when in-car cameras are on, for all the world to maybe see (otherwise, they rely on telemetry). If that window happens to be when a company is trying to set their best time, and the weather doesn't cooperate fully, "Oh well". Less than ultimate times ensue.

The Z/28 is NASA-legal, and therefore sanctioning-legal, for racing. With a slightly smaller front rotor, which no doubt will be homologated (if necessary), other sanctioning bodies will follow. What sanctioning body would want to avoid the classic "best Ford vs. best Chev" showdown?! The question should be: What will Ford bring to this gunfight? Hopefully not a knife.

As for the Milford times, if Randy Pobst himself had driven each car, the times would be disputed by those who choose to disbelieve. Neutral territory tests will ensue. And you'll still have your day in court to pick those tests/times apart. Again, what will Ford send as their representative?

A lot of assumptions here...

First, the z28 is not permitted in NASA. The Boss 302LS is banned for R series tires, so, how again do you expect a z28 to race there? The Boss 302S is a pure race car and former SCCA champion, it's not for kids. Chevy, tries to convince you the z28 is a race car but, you can't race the car ANYWHERE.

Chevy doesn't want to compete with the Boss, it is probably 4 times more expensive to reverse engineer a car from the season than it is to parts bin a piece of sh!t together like they did. The Boss was an expensive expedition but, the gamble paid off with a successful 2-3 seasons... Chevy can't do that with the Camaro, especially since the Corvette is doing very well.

The Ring: Again, during Industry Pools at Nurburgring, all testing equipment is usually running. The only time you can't run a camera is on Tourist days BUT, you can get a pass at Gate C if you have a decent reason. If they say they wasn't running a camera, they would probably be the first test team ever to do that.

The last time Randy raced at Laguna, he put the GT500 in front of the ZL1. However, Chevy seems to be the only one that can actually beat the GT500. Everyone else seems to have problems.

Looking at their Milford run with the media and running a tourist lap at a 1:59, I have come to the conclusion that most of this marketing is just dirty payback. It seems they have been completely but hurt since November 2012 since the GT500 came out. Sandbagging is retarded, especially if it is the competition. Most people know that the old '12 GT500 was faster than the '12 Boss LS... I have no idea how they managed a 1:59 in either the Boss or 500. Looking at a true 1:59 from the z28, it's apparent they lied and cheated. It's not the first time GM has cheated, the only difference now is that they are actually marketing this to you. To them, you are a thoughtless idiot, ready to buy what ever comes out of their mouths... They even released a video of a 1:59 lap, DOES THAT LOOK FAST TO YOU?

Roll cages: I am a Motorsport Chassis Fabricator and Engineer (Wyo grad), the cage does weigh (about 60lbs-80lbs), however, I'm sure they took that weight back out. The interior of the ZL1 was stripped... The advantages of a full cage (while in motion) are incredible. Over hundreds of thousands of additional torsion strength offsets any weight I'll tell you that. Tires were worth 2-4 seconds, cages got more out of those tires and suspension setup then anything. The Boss 302 S runs Laguna close to 1:32 (restricted), the Boss 302LS did one lap at 1:39.5. Tires, cage, weight (200lbs) and GT500 transmission (All OEM)

The z28 can't beat the Boss on the circuit, it's apparent since the first z28 was scrapped (after the Boss's first season) and decided "F2ck it, lets just build a mega z28 and charge $70 grand for it. I can buy a Boss 302S for $82,000, never raced... It's worth $80-90k just on merits alone, almost 25 class wins in 3 years, a championship and 2 class records...

The z28 won't have any of that, you can't legal race anywhere, it's not recommend to drag racing and is not recommended for a daily driver... It's garbage...

What will Ford bring to the gunfight? Probably a gun, then Chevy shows up 2 years later, with guns, knives and 7 of their friends, only to agree amongst themselves that they really won... Screw the gun fight, get in the ring and not a Ring around the world, I'M TALKING the PRO-AM CIRCUIT...

 

[thePill]

Here is quote from Stielow...

We test during the Industry Pool days (IP). The IP days are for just the OE manufacturers with certified drivers. So the only time you can video is during rented track time. So we ran faster times in the dry with traffic. I had a chance to square up with a few GT3 and it was a hoot. The Porsche guys also had their 918 there this trip. That is in another league of car.

Only in GM world can you go faster, in traffic... I understand the "Dry" because they are trying to push a HUGE MSRP... But "In traffic" is something all together.

What really happened is, they seen how much the ZL1 was ahead before the straight (and when the rain started) then just made a Dry and Traffic statement to make it seem like a what... 7:26??? Get over it, this thing is not nearly as fast as a Z06... Never, ever, in a million years.... I don't care what they are trying to sell you, don't buy it.

Here is the last bit from Mark...

Check out the lead we had to the ZL-1 before the rain came.

BTW I wasn't asked to make it cheap... I was asked to make it FAST!

Price will be announced after the 1st of the year.

LOL!! So they are suggesting, that because the z28 was up 6 seconds before the rain, that, in the dry, WITH traffic, they could have maintained that 6 second lead? Even when the ZL1 is doing 10-14mph faster for the entire straight? Get ready for a killer MSRP i guess... Makes that legal Boss S look pretty attractive.

I don't think the z28 would have gained anything in the last stretch... Not being down 14mph... Seems like quite a lot of buffering going on... When I say buffering I mean excuses... Okay, they made clear they didn't tape the 7:31, obviously... How about some data then? The Milford data was released, why not the Ring data? Let me guess, the z28 can do sub-8 minute Ring laps ALL DAY... Just like the ZL1's 11's all day I'll bet... Okay, I'll trust you this time!!!

Has anybody seen the z28 lap Milford at 1:59? Does anyone think a '13 GT500 or Boss would have been drifting through the turns in a serious attempt? Not me, I'm not an idiot...

However... www.camaro5.com

Do a tire swap on the ZL1 and the z28 doesn't stand a chance... except for maybe consecutive laps... but then again, that's racing. Something a z28 cannot do with it's fancy equipment.

Another thing to consider...

Adam Dean was driving that car for the record run attempts. The weather was spotty the two weeks we were there. I logged about 6 hours of stick time at the Nurburgring on this trip. It is a scary fast track with a great car. This is the part of my job that makes all the GM corporate BS worth it.

Two weeks of record run attempts (rented track)... No camera or faster lap time... Even with Mark driving. Maybe they ran a better time, in traffic but, during testing, who knows what is being tuned. Runs made year long are less likely to be near OEM, especially if a cage was used. The GT500 had all kinds of non-OEM stuff during their test...

 

[BaylorCorvette]

A lot of assumptions here...

Most of this thread is nothing but assumptions...... lol.

Lets not forget what happened when Randy tested the GT500 vs ZL1, the GT500 was slightly faster the first lap. However it got slower and slower due to the shitty brakes, while ZL1 did not. As Randy said, "The ZL1 comes track ready"

The z28 won't have any of that, you can't legal race anywhere, it's not recommend to drag racing and is not recommended for a daily driver... It's garbage...

Maybe, maybe not. All you're doing is making assumptions about the future, a word you should be familiar with since that is the basis of this thread. I've said this more than once and you seem to ignore it. EVEN IF the Z/28 cannot compete officially anywhere, I HIGHLY DOUBT that is going to have an impact on GM selling the car (since it is limited production). There are just too many GM/Chevy fan boys, and too many people that hear all the marketing hype, 'Ring videos, magazine reviews, etc. If you want to make the argument of the Z/28's success in a professional setting, OK I'll buy into that. However if you're going to make an argument that this GM will not be able to sell the Z/28, I find that very laughable. Not going to happen.

 

[2112]

Lets not forget what happened when Randy tested the GT500 vs ZL1, the GT500 was slightly faster the first lap. However it got slower and slower due to the shitty brakes, while ZL1 did not.

The issue was the ZL1 had brake cooling ducts and the GT500 did not, correct?

 

[BaylorCorvette]

The issue was the ZL1 had brake cooling ducts and the GT500 did not, correct?

I don't know if that was the issue or not. The ZL1 does have brake cooling ducts though.

Another thing to keep in mind is of you go to Ford's site, the GT500 has a base price of $55,595 and Chevy's site has the ZL1 at $55,055

GT500

ZL1

If you want the SVT Bilstein electronic adjustable dampers, TORSEN diff, engine oil cooler, trans cooler and diff cooler that is another + $6,490, the price gap then jumps to the GT500 costing $7,030 more. The ZL1 has all of these things standard...

The GT500 tested by Randy at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca had all of these options. It is also likely that the GT500 at Grattan Raceway had similar options since its price as tested was $63,080

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