2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

Just to clarify, 3.8 seconds at Nurburgring is about 12 car lengths (about 200 feet), average speeds are about 105.3mph for the z28 and 104.6mph for the ZL1...

Literally, the z28 is crossing the finish line when the ZL1 is here....

The "Unofficial" Finish line is right after the bend.

.7mph and 200 feet isn't worth it for $60k...

Here is the z28 at almost the same spot... They both finished about 4 seconds later.

If it was legal and sanctioned in organized road racing, I'd say good on ya'. But since it's pretty much useless, well...

The z28 topped out at 158mph, the ZL1 was around 172mph. My sources initially said about 10-12mph, it was down 14mph on the record run.

Now what???

If the ZL1 can find an additional 0.7mph, it would be a serious threat to the z28... at least for one lap...

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[Norm Peterson]

7:37.47 for the z28 at Nurburgring...

That was a close one, I didn't think it could over come that 14mph difference over the ZL1. Some rain on the straight as well... There were some other parts of the track the ZL1 is just destroying the z28 in speed but, the z28 gains back it's speed in the turns.

So as good as the ZL1 is in its overall balance, it is still something of a "point and shoot" car in comparison to the Z/28. At least relatively, the Z/28 is the "momentum car" here.

Will the Stingray be faster? probably... Does that justify a $60k+ MSRP for a slightly better Nurburgring time and a non-sanctioned stripped street car?

Not sure what this says . . . but "stripped street car" being an OE configuration is not viewed as "lacking" by everybody. Do not assume that just because having lots of C&C features appeals to the majority of car buyers taken generally that everybody falls into that category. Especially those who would be actively interested in such a narrowly focused car as the Z/28.

Not recommended for drag racing kinda sucks, not legal for road racing kinda does too.

Drag racing . . . meh. Time will tell whether road-race legality becomes important or whether simply being a fast street-legal track toy will be sufficient. It will still be bargain-priced compared to buying and running a P-car of comparable performance at open track days.

.7mph and 200 feet isn't worth it for $60k...

Shouldn't you really be comparing the .7 mph and 200 foot differences against whatever the difference in ZL1 vs Z/28 pricing might be? Keep in mind that there really are people who would take that performance difference over all of the C&C and "technology" features that the ZL1 is stuffed with that are not even available in the Z/28 . . . every damn time.

If it was legal and sanctioned in organized road racing, I'd say good on ya'. But since it's pretty much useless, well...

Actually, as a sort of "in your face" statement against arbitrary sanctioning body rulesets and sometimes capricious decisions, I like it just fine the way it is. By way of example, are you at all familiar with the recent ruckus in SCCA's STX and ESP classing over what constitutes allowable Watts link design for the few stick axle cars that remain?

I think you'd understand this a lot better if you'd tended to build up your street-only cars to suit the way you wanted them to drive and only later decided to compete with them somewhere. Hint: not every DIY modification can be undone to the extent that it becomes 100% protest-proof.

The z28 topped out at 158mph, the ZL1 was around 172mph. My sources initially said about 10-12mph, it was down 14mph on the record run.

Now what???

If the ZL1 can find an additional 0.7mph, it would be a serious threat to the z28... at least for one lap...

That it is the ZL1 that has to somehow find a little more speed should be telling you that power isn't everything.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Just to clarify, 3.8 seconds at Nurburgring is about 12 car lengths (about 200 feet), average speeds are about 105.3mph for the z28 and 104.6mph for the ZL1...

Care to review the distance separation and that math?

I realize that the time and distance differences are going to "rubberband" a bit. But let's not cherry-pick the data any more than can be helped.

3.8 seconds at 105 mph (average) is about 585 feet by my calculator.

Pick the start finish differently and run continuous laps like you would at a track day anywhere else and see what happens.


Norm

 

[thePill]

Care to review the distance separation and that math?

I realize that the time and distance differences are going to "rubberband" a bit. But let's not cherry-pick the data any more than can be helped.

3.8 seconds at 105 mph (average) is about 585 feet by my calculator.

Pick the start finish differently and run continuous laps like you would at a track day anywhere else and see what happens.


Norm

Total Nurburgring distance in feet divided by the each lap time, convert to MPH. The difference is 0.7mph average. That is a difference in time of day, let alone year.


The distance between the two are about 200 feet, the last stretch is about 500 feet... The screen capture above shows where the ZL1 is at when the z28 crosses the finish line. The ZL1 driver could see the z28 when it finished... The maximum distance total would have been about 30 cars IF you take the entire race into account however, the ZL1 nailed the z at the end. It was much faster.


That said, understand that was the only run the z28 was faster, for most of the testing, the ZL1 was faster. When can we expect to see a z28 in SCCA or Grand Am? Never... Kind of a waste of time.


Im sorry, a half a mile an hour faster is not worth the potential $5-10k increase. Especially if you can't legally race in any class. Another fear is, the z28 had a hard time beating the ZL1.... Rain or not. It rained during the '13 GT500 and '12 Boss's Lightning Lap, on different days (years) with different drivers in traffic... That wasn't nitpicked...



The 2014 z28 was 0.7mph faster than the ZL1, it finished 3.8 seconds and about 200 feet ahead. Is it worth $60k+?


A stripped down, race car that is just as fast as the grand tourer? For thousands more?


I have to be honest, the guys didn't think it could make up the huge speed disadvantage... Finally grabbing a .7mph advantage helped.. Because the z28 was down about the same 1/2mph to the ZL1 until the z28 was tuned. I highly doubt buyers will see an OEM z28 that can repeat that 7:37. Caged again probably...


Even Camaro fans are a bit underwhelmed....



SAVE YOUR MONEY... A ZL1 in z28 wheels and tires and that pig is GONE....

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Here's a video overlay of the Z/28 and ZL1 lap.

 

[Boss2013]

Congrats to Chevy for producing a stripped down track 'Maro and edging the 10 year old Ford GT by only .03 seconds at the 'Ring.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

The Ford GT ran a 7:37.44?

This list shows it ran a 7:40.60
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

7:40.60 here as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

And this one has it listed at 7:52.00
http://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times/lap-times-top-100/

 

[Norm Peterson]

Thanks, Baylor.

Pill - over the first 80-odd% of that comparative video, the Z/28 ran away and hid from the ZL1. There is nearly 6 full seconds difference at the Carousel, and by the time the ZL1 gets there the Z/28 is over the next rise and most of the way around the next bend.

By around the 5:25-ish mark, the Z/28 has stretched out another two seconds, and and adds yet another second to the gap by 6:30. Even if I estimate a rough average speed on the low side, say 70 mph due to the water and having to catch it a couple of times, that makes the gap over 900 feet.

There aren't very many places with straights as long as that last one at Nurburgring, so the time and distance that the ZL1 takes back over that stretch isn't going to happen most anywhere else. The Silver State Classic and similar events is about it on this continent.


Hey - it's OK for you to prefer one car over the other for whatever reasons. Others simply differ and prefer the more minimalist car


Norm

 

[thePill]

Thanks, Baylor.

Pill - over the first 80-odd% of that comparative video, the Z/28 ran away and hid from the ZL1. There is nearly 6 full seconds difference at the Carousel, and by the time the ZL1 gets there the Z/28 is over the next rise and most of the way around the next bend.

By around the 5:25-ish mark, the Z/28 has stretched out another two seconds, and and adds yet another second to the gap by 6:30. Even if I estimate a rough average speed on the low side, say 70 mph due to the water and having to catch it a couple of times, that makes the gap over 900 feet.

There aren't very many places with straights as long as that last one at Nurburgring, so the time and distance that the ZL1 takes back over that stretch isn't going to happen most anywhere else. The Silver State Classic and similar events is about it on this continent.


Hey - it's OK for you to prefer one car over the other for whatever reasons. Others simply differ and prefer the more minimalist car


Norm

First, that 2004 Ford GT run was done by Octane Magazine by an editor. Ford has never officially released a Ring time for any of their vehicles... including Team RS's laps (which are incredible for a series of compacts). Done 10 years ago mind you...

Norm, this is a screen capture of the ZL1's run at 7:37.39. The finish line is right around that right hand turn.

ZL1

z28

Where the ZL1 sits in the pic above is probably less than 200 feet Norm. I feel for the z28, it was ahead by almost 6 seconds, then the overwhelming speed of the ZL1 ate that lead back up... You have to defend yourself for the entire lap.

While many want to boo hoo about the 6 seconds of rain at the end, I'm not sympathetic. The z28 ran ALL summer and most of the fall in sunshine, cool days, hot days, rain, 60 degree, 80 degree and all the other natural weather I didn't mention... Guess what Norm? The z28 couldn't beat the ZL1 in those conditions. The only run, the one where it rained for a few seconds, was the only lap the z28 beat the ZL1 in... which is why that was the video they chose. If you don't think the ZL1 can muster an extra 0.7mph to make up that extra 200 feet just by running this year, you could possibly be mistaken.

Do you think the ZL1 could make up that .7mph and 200 feet with the z28's tires?

Sure, the z28 will probably be much faster at a small track... but what track in America you intend on racing your z28 in is a mystery...

Rain or not Norm, a 14mph disadvantage puts about 6-8 seconds on the ZL1 on just the 3km straight... The z28 is pretty much exhausted at 158mph/6000rpm... I actually put a semi-report on this a few weeks ago while we were watching the z28 run. Even if it didn't rain, the z28 can't go any faster on that portion of the track...

 

[thePill]

It's about 12 car lengths, a little less than 200 feet... The average MPH between the ZL1 and z28 were almost identical... 105.3mph average for the z28 and a 104.6mph for the ZL1... All that said, over the last 6 months at Nurburgring, the 2014 z28 produced a single faster lap. Some of those 30-40 laps in the z28 were done in good conditions, some in bad and some like the one posted. It couldn't dominate the ZL1 as previously intended... So much was sacrificed to beat the ZL1's time (like legal road racing components and a decent MSRP) and that's it...

Anyway, here is the capture of the ZL1 vs. z28 runs, you can see that the ZL1 is pretty close... some would say it wouldn't take any modifications at all for the ZL1 to produce a better time...

Me back on September 7th...

I have actually been snickering about this for 6 weeks... They tried, and tried, and tried to run a better time... No go...

Back on August 25th, when I initially got the reports from Nurburg. It never broke 160mph regardless of the conditions... There was great weather in Germany this summer and fall...

I don't know an easy way of puttin' this but, the z28 was having it's ass handed to it for about 2 months (vs. the ZL1). Not sure I'd be too eager to buy a car, that's marketed "faster" than the ZL1 based solely on a single lucky lap. Marketed as a pure race car but can't race... They couldn't beat the ZL1's time and when they did, it was only once... Faster???? In that video it was... If the ZL1 was on the track in the light rain (drizzle), those Goodyears would have made an impact... Of course heat soak is an issue with the ZL1.

Lets just stick to facts...

The z28 had a 0.7mph average speed advantage.
The z28 was 14mph slower on vMax.
The z28 was 3.8 seconds faster than the ZL1
Winning distance was around 200 feet or 12 car lengths (Confirmed by Google Maps)

...and some details...

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Pill, you bring up very valid points about the ZL1 walking in the Z/28 at the end, but who is really surprised that happened? If you watch the video overlay I posted at the 3:00.00 - 3:15.00 mark the Z/28 is putting the hurt on the ZL1 in the twisties and then again at 4:08.00 - 4:48.00

As per GM's press release:
...The Z/28’s lap is four seconds faster than the Camaro ZL1, and beats published times for the Porsche 911 Carrera S and the Lamborghini Murcielago LP640. The Z/28’s lap was completed on less-than-ideal conditions, with damp pavement and pouring rain near the end of the run.

"One of the challenges of testing at the 'Ring is that the track is so long that conditions can change radically in a single lap," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "Adam Dean, the development driver for Z/28, did a heroic job driving in deteriorating conditions. Based on telemetry data from our test sessions, we know the Z/28 can be as much as six seconds faster on a dry track."...

GM believes they can get an even better run on the 'Ring in better conditions, up to SIX seconds. Of course that is all moot until it actually happens. However I tend to believe a car with better tires, brakes and weighs 300lbs less and only 75 hp down (as compared to the ZL1) should be able to put up a better time.


The fact of the matter is, for most people you are paying more for less with the Z/28. Starting MSRP is high 60's low 70's (from what I've heard). That is stupid money (imo) for a Camaro. However this gen. of Z/28 isn't for most people. It is going to be extremely limited production numbers and I highly doubt GM will have a problem selling any of them.

I'm more than happy to stick with my ZL1 that cost less, has more power and all the creature comforts ;)

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I don't know an easy way of puttin' this but, the z28 was having it's ass handed to it for about 2 months (vs. the ZL1) ... They couldn't beat the ZL1's time and when they did, it was only once... Faster???? ...

Source?

 

[thePill]

Pill, you bring up very valid points about the ZL1 walking in the Z/28 at the end, but who is really surprised that happened? If you watch the video overlay I posted at the 3:00.00 - 3:15.00 mark the Z/28 is putting the hurt on the ZL1 in the twisties and then again at 4:08.00 - 4:48.00

As per GM's press release:
...The Z/28’s lap is four seconds faster than the Camaro ZL1, and beats published times for the Porsche 911 Carrera S and the Lamborghini Murcielago LP640. The Z/28’s lap was completed on less-than-ideal conditions, with damp pavement and pouring rain near the end of the run.

"One of the challenges of testing at the 'Ring is that the track is so long that conditions can change radically in a single lap," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "Adam Dean, the development driver for Z/28, did a heroic job driving in deteriorating conditions. Based on telemetry data from our test sessions, we know the Z/28 can be as much as six seconds faster on a dry track."...

GM believes they can get an even better run on the 'Ring in better conditions, up to SIX seconds. Of course that is all moot until it actually happens. However I tend to believe a car with better tires, brakes and weighs 300lbs less and only 75 hp down (as compared to the ZL1) should be able to put up a better time.


The fact of the matter is, for most people you are paying more for less with the Z/28. Starting MSRP is high 60's low 70's (from what I've heard). That is stupid money (imo) for a Camaro. However this gen. of Z/28 isn't for most people. It is going to be extremely limited production numbers and I highly doubt GM will have a problem selling any of them.

I'm more than happy to stick with my ZL1 that cost less, has more power and all the creature comforts ;)

The ZL1's speed is hard to overcome, 14mph is huge... If the Stingray manages a slightly faster time than the z28, I would like to see the MSRP as low as $57k.

It's hard to justify a $60-70k price tag when you are:

a.) Just as fast as the $56,000 ZL1 at Nurburgring

b.) Advertised slower in the 1/4 too (probably will be slightly faster real world)

b.) Slower than the $60,000 Stingray at Nurburgring

c.) Not sanctioned by Chevrolet for organized Road Racing (Nor will it ever be)

d.) Not legal for competition in any organization (Nor will it ever be)

e.) Not recommended for Drag Racing

f.) Stripped down with no stereo and optional AC

 

[BaylorCorvette]

The ZL1's speed is hard to overcome, 14mph is huge...

I agree

It's hard to justify a $60-70k price tag when you are:

a.) Just as fast as the $56,000 ZL1 at Nurburgring

Technically faster given the "official 'Ring times" what WE enthusits think/ believe about if the ZL1 can make up the difference doesn't really matter. It is public perception. Do you think GM is going to take the ZL1 back to the 'Ring and post a better time than the Z/28? I HIGHLY DOUBT it. EVEN if it was capable.

b.) Advertised slower in the 1/4 too (probably will be slightly faster real world)

Could be. I'm curious to see what it does.

b.) Slower than the $60,000 Stingray at Nurburgring

Probably, but we don't know (yet).

c.) Not sanctioned by Chevrolet for organized Road Racing (Nor will it ever be)

Maybe. But honestly it doesn't really matter. It is going to be very limited production, and most of the people that buy these won't race it on a course (even though Chevy advertises it for this purpose). I'm guessing, and this is only a guess. But a lot of these Z/28's are going to be owned by middle aged men or older men that have the money to drop on the expensive Z/28 (that IMO isn't worth the $65k-70k+ price tag), they will take it to club meets, car shows, have it sit in their garage, etc. Those that DO want to race it can still at various tracks, it doesn't matter if it is in a "class" or not. The individuals that buy the Z/28 and want to race it, will race it.

d.) Not legal for competition in any organization (Nor will it ever be)

See previous comment. But I'm curious why you say "nor will it ever be legal for competition" Do you have a crystal ball? Do you really think that there is absolutely no competition EVER in the future that the Z/28 COULD participate in? I highly doubt it.

e.) Not recommended for Drag Racing

Agreed, but people will still do it anyways.

f.) Stripped down with no stereo and optional AC

Aaaaaand back to my "Pay more get less" comment about the Z/28 vs ZL1.

 

[bballr4567]

Only thing I have to say is that its looking like the Z/28 is limited to around 6k in top gear. Every other gear he was clearly over 6800. Why? Not sure but to say that the "top speed" is slower because yatta, yatta, yatta is a little false.

Plus, I think I saw 161 didnt I??

And....the Z/28 was ahead over 6 seconds at the bridge at the end of the straight. Certainly lost almost all its time on the 4 mile straight. (OF course its not 4 miles but close, lol)

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