2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

I was reading through "thepill" thread on camaro5 and there is a lot of butthurt going on. Someone said something about the z28 "hammering" the corvette z06!
Do people really believe that a camaro that weighs 600-700 lbs more than the Z06 with the same engine/power will be faster?

I had another thought while working today... How many new z28 owners will do things like cam swap/exhaust/power adders? Will the significant cost, and collectible value deter owners from modding? I figured that wouldn't be the case if the z28 was a higher volume car that cost roughly half the price.

Thoughts?

I am not going back to Camaro5, no way, no how. The reason I told them to just ban me is happening again in that useless thread about an imaginary avatar. They will instantly attack me, the operator of an avatar then read what I post. Nobody has access to all the information and I have to do a lot of speculation to fill in gaps. That is why I use words like "maybe", "might" or "possibly"... that's the cue that the info I heard stops HERE and we now must brainstorm and fill in the blanks... together. However, once negative details match mine, they get pissy.

I won't go back because some moderators over there are pricks and the entire product is manipulative. They would rather convince their members I have the ability to control your mind then admit this piece of sh!t Z28 is garbage.

The Z28 is a blank shot into a fish-less barrel... and yes, some idiots will enjoy it.

Sponsored

 

[Norm Peterson]

Quote:
However the Z/28 is SPECIFICALLY designed to be optimal for road course track racing, just like the COPO is specifically designed for drag strip racing.

The Z28 Misunderstanding:
The Z28 was design SPECIFICALLY for road racing however, the Z28 is not legal to run in ANY road racing organization with its OEM equipment.
<snip>

The misunderstanding was most likely in adding the word 'racing' in the original piece. No real harm done, until it got compounded by hammering away at it like it was a major technical fault.

I have only a little more track day experience than to be able to say that I have any. But everything I've heard about the upcoming Z/28 makes it a lot like what I'd want (cost aside at least for the moment).

I have no real interest in getting involved in wheel to wheel. Time trials, maybe, time and skill development permitting. I've seen the pickiness over rules (and interpretations, followed by clarifications and requests for rule changes - sometimes the resolution of which defies logic) at the autocross level. And that fussiness over the rules side of motorsports simply doesn't interest me any more. I'll run the Mustang wherever it legally falls (CP in autocross at this point) whenever I feel like it and just go have fun. That's what matters.

I doubt that I'm alone in having this view, and that's where I think you may be missing the point of the Z/28. Don't worry about what might have to be removed - even at the autocross level there is precedent for requiring the removal or the rendering ineffective of performance features that were original factory equipment.

Please note what I'm driving, and that I'm no stranger to Mustang internet message boards (I'll get around to fleshing out a profile). It's on a (slow) progression toward better suitability for open tracking. Been that way since I drove it home, and each modification still needs to retain a semblance of streetability. Semblance being the operative word.

So I know that I could very easily live with a car like the Z/28. Add an option for a separate set of 200-ish treadwear tires mounted on the same wheels, check off the A/C box (due to my own heat stress sensitivity), and toss in one more speaker (or an easy hookup for a DIY addition), and I could and would drive it on a daily basis. Too much fun to leave it home, even driven gently relative to its ultimate limits. I doubt that I'm alone.

Maybe the magazine editors will hate the ride, but they have to find something to gripe about, else they look like a bunch of captive yes-men. Frankly, I don't see ride quality being a big problem at all. This isn't going to be the only car for a growing family - I'm well past that stage, and have more than two cars available . . . like most who'd consider buying a Z/28 or similarly focused car.

Sure, if you're a sharp enough and serious enough DIY'er you could come very close to matching it, starting from, say, the 1LE. Eventually. Though you'd have to be able to do all the 'deletes' without issue if you're also trying to match the more bare-bones nature of the Z/28.


Norm

 

[thePill]

I doubt that I'm alone in having this view, and that's where I think you may be missing the point of the Z/28. Don't worry about what might have to be removed - even at the autocross level there is precedent for requiring the removal or the rendering ineffective of performance features that were original factory equipment.

I went to great lengths to ensure my point and Chevy's outlook match before I posted. My issue with the car is that a great number of comforts were abandon in the name of performance, or racing as was stated in the interview. It was a majority of said entusast that missed the point. Most had no idea this thing was not permitted to run anywhere. It was assumed it would be okay, or a specific race series would be created or this car is built to win. Beating Ford on the streets is hard to do while the Coyote, Boss and GT500 are some of the most feared cars of all time for the money. Winning on the streets is all drag racing and I am sorry, this Z28 won't do very well... Anyway, back to the only venue Chevy has a chance in, road racing. OEM vs. OEM, Chevy can't beat Ford in any of the Mustang's eligible classes. Some nice lap times, some decent points, but no head on dominance that's gonna get it cut down.

Even for someone doing SCCA Solo or NASA are still affected by the rulebooks. As it stands now, the Z28 has a completely different brake calibration and cannot be exchanged to the 1LE's.

I have an issue with weight loss and thats the LS7 itself forces Corvettes to take on extra weight... 100lbs to be exact or wear a choke plate. In NASA, this thing will accumulate so many penalty points for time trails, it would class between the Z06 and ZR1 and you just are not getting that kind of performance. All the SCCA rules apply to Pro, Amateur and Solo.

So what's the point? There really is none... It's a $70,000 driveway fluffier that's not recommended for drag racing (or street where they wanna beat Ford), not permitted in organized racing, will accumulate a ton of penalty class points due to one-of-a-kind equipment and is missing some serious street equipment...

In one sentence Norm, define the Z28's purpose.

BTW: Good to see you still racing... and here as well...

 

[thePill]

Listen, I respect their concern now. It could have been avoided just by engineering the Z28 for specific classes anyway. It took a few magazines and an interview to ask the question... Would it have been asked if thePill wouldn't have said anything? Probably not... Most buyers would have found out the hard way. If it wasn't a big deal, journalist wouldn't have brought it up, nor would Chevy be "trying" to create a special race series. Chevy hasn't even put forth the effort to sanction the 1LE in anything other than T2. What makes anyone think they are going to get the SCCA and Ford to agree to let them run patent equipment that they can't. The 1LE can't even manage the 5.0 GT's in T2... If they require all of that Z28 to compete against the GT then, I am sorry... That is a HUGE failure. No attempts were made to sanction the 1LE in FIA at all, nor Grand Am, ALMS or SCCA. They want to create a class just for the Z28 to legally run in.. They are not even thinking that only a few Z28s will be built and even less will show up to a series...

In my opinion, this is the 3rd strike

Now that is all said and done, why???? Why not make a real head on competitor for the Boss 302. The original was made to dethrone the Mustang without insisting on a special series. At this point, it's pretty much all talk with little or no effort to challenge the Mustang in any of it's classes. I realize the 5.0 GT lost a couple of magazine comparisons but, for some reason, in a real scenario, the 1LE can't get it done.

Another thing, a text book example of how Camaro people will defend a product to death with little or no knowledge on the subject discussed. They even read my post, looked at the screenshots of the rule book and went on the defense by attacking the poster instead of the topic. Why??? Do I really have that much power over your members? The ones that can't think for themselves... Yeah, I'll control the sh!t outta them. Why not... that's the entire C5 approach to mod-ipulation. It's when someone starts screaming "Wake Up!!!" that they get ruffled. The average reader will read post, find facts, laugh at the puns and jokes and move on educated.

In short, I was right, as always... Now, every lap it throws down on paper will be accompanied by a "who cares" and that's where this entire thread has led people.

 

[Norm Peterson]

In one sentence Norm, define the Z28's purpose.

It'll ramble a bit, but I'm an engineer, not an advertising guru.

A reasonably streetable track day car for those who do not define their car's value in terms of "features" or (particularly) comfort, who want their "hard driving" to be all fun.

Fun, rather than clouded by picky rules matters or the aggression that sometimes occurs at the wheel to wheel level.

OK, two sentences because I couldn't keep the HTML from breaking it up once I bolded it and cut the text width down so you can scroll right just once to read it all.

That may be a bigger market than many people currently suspect, now that there are all manner of HPDE/PDX/HOD/Trackdaze/etc. entities putting these events on. That's already the premier
place to play if the current state of modification of the car you do have does not nicely fit into a competition class, so it's not like the Z/28 would be breaking any fresh ground.

That it's attracting attention from Porsche drivers seems significant. Going W2W with a GT3, you'd start with a race version, which puts the road versions . . . where? Keep in mind that the
road GT3s were also pretty Spartan.


Older buyers - arguably those more likely to have the requisite disposable income - tend to have memory of when cars weren't so packed with technology and other "features" that become
utterly unnecessary in what in many cases is going to be the toy. For the record, I'm 65, and with the addition of only A/C and a 2-channel radio could daily drive something like
this ↓↓↓ pretty much year round without second thought.

Google on "Muttstang" or "$5000 budget Mustang" if you are not familiar with this car (shown here at some Optima event). I've met the owner and seen it run at autocross and on the big track.

I'm saying I think the Z/28 is more of a potential competitor to cars like the roadgoing GT3 and this one than to anything with dedicated wheel to wheel intent and a
ready-made class to play in. Whether any sanctioning body steps up to create a class for the Z/28 is wild speculation at this point.

Sorry if the picture comes out huge, don't have any easy way to fix that.

Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Back from the dentist and happened to read this over on Camaro5 where the question was raised about how many 1LE owners were actually going to track their cars. California, if it matters any.

Doesn't surprise me much.

I met a guy (son of a friend I play tennis with) whose career is track instruction for people like us. For somewhere between $300-500 a day teaches how to properly drive and race your car. He cited that weekend track days are actually becoming a new weekend event that is known to be eating into golf revenue.

Norm

 

[thePill]

It'll ramble a bit, but I'm an engineer, not an advertising guru.




OK, two sentences because I couldn't keep the HTML from breaking it up once I bolded it and cut the text width down so you can scroll right just once to read it all.

That may be a bigger market than many people currently suspect, now that there are all manner of HPDE/PDX/HOD/Trackdaze/etc. entities putting these events on. That's already the premier
place to play if the current state of modification of the car you do have does not nicely fit into a competition class, so it's not like the Z/28 would be breaking any fresh ground.

That it's attracting attention from Porsche drivers seems significant. Going W2W with a GT3, you'd start with a race version, which puts the road versions . . . where? Keep in mind that the
road GT3s were also pretty Spartan.


Older buyers - arguably those more likely to have the requisite disposable income - tend to have memory of when cars weren't so packed with technology and other "features" that become
utterly unnecessary in what in many cases is going to be the toy. For the record, I'm 65, and with the addition of only A/C and a 2-channel radio could daily drive something like
this ↓↓↓ pretty much year round without second thought.

Google on "Muttstang" or "$5000 budget Mustang" if you are not familiar with this car (shown here at some Optima event). I've met the owner and seen it run at autocross and on the big track.

I'm saying I think the Z/28 is more of a potential competitor to cars like the roadgoing GT3 and this one than to anything with dedicated wheel to wheel intent and a
ready-made class to play in. Whether any sanctioning body steps up to create a class for the Z/28 is wild speculation at this point.

Sorry if the picture comes out huge, don't have any easy way to fix that.

Norm

Awesome shot!!! I would be out there If I could handle the G's. I agree with the track day fun label. That is exactly what the Z28 is, no where close to the original. To be completely honest, Chevy is making zero attempts to sanction the 5th Gen anywhere. NASA already created a Camaro and Mustang specific class, BUT, Chevy hasn't sanctioned a Camaro yet. It is ALL Mustang's http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules

The Z28 is also prohibited from Solo due to the 305 tires all around. NASA's HPDE event's allowed the ZL1 to run and even allowed the ZL1 to lose 400lbs. The new Z06 isn't permitted due to the LS7, ZR1 and GT500 have too much power and is not permitted. It is unlikely that NASA or SCCA will change their outlook on the LS7 because it was complaints made by the other manufacturers.

The class requirements for NASA Solo and HPDE

Eligible Solo, Auto-X and HPDE cars (notice the ZL1's minimum weight). The ZL1 is actually one of the worst road racing platforms ever built. This is coming from a seasoned racing family that is part of a GM automotive group. It is allowed a 400lbs weight reduction for autocross but most likely can't reach that number.

No GT500 or Corvettes because, they are what the Z28 is going to be... pretty dominating (even for fun days) and they have a lot of one-of-a-kind equipment.

The issue is, Solo, Auto-X and HPDE events are usually hosted by SCCA, FIA or NASA... Both Pro and amateur rules are the same. HPDE events are open track BUT, once the Time Trail events are factored in, the rulebooks come back out... So, open track is about all we can do.

Chevy want's a specific series for the Camaro... There is already a series for that but they haven't showed up yet. The Mustang is just winning championships unchallenged.

The thing is Norm, Chevy hasn't really hyped this Z28 too much, who's to say they are not pulling another ZL1 again. Most of Camaro enthusiast predictions are based on what Chevy and Al says. They said the same sh!t last year, and the year before that, and the year before that... It's easier just to make stuff up and run a ringer than to actually get in the ring ya' know...

If you spend $70,000 on a track day car just to take it to HPDE events, that just doesn't sit well with me. Your spending $70k on a "race car" then attend classroom instruction, sometimes with a passenger in a beginner setting. Just get a Miata...

 

[Norm Peterson]

The only newbie to track days who would show up in a Z/28 or GT3 or even a GT500 or ZL1 is the individual with more money than good common sense. You've seen that "Nightmare Trackday Student" animated short, right?


I guess we come from different backgrounds. I'm so used to my cars being over-modded for their otherwise realistic classes that when I do compete it doesn't much matter how well my cars fit into existing class structures.

I mod my cars the way I do because that's what I want out of them in street trim. Assuming I could handle the Z/28's price point I'd consider that car as a head start on many of the things I'd end up doing myself anyway. With a warranty of some sort. In solo anyway, I'd imagine it'll first end up in some SP class or other like the ZL1.


Norm

 

[thePill]

The only newbie to track days who would show up in a Z/28 or GT3 or even a GT500 or ZL1 is the individual with more money than good common sense. You've seen that "Nightmare Trackday Student" animated short, right?


I guess we come from different backgrounds. I'm so used to my cars being over-modded for their otherwise realistic classes that when I do compete it doesn't much matter how well my cars fit into existing class structures.

I mod my cars the way I do because that's what I want out of them in street trim. Assuming I could handle the Z/28's price point I'd consider that car as a head start on many of the things I'd end up doing myself anyway. With a warranty of some sort. In solo anyway, I'd imagine it'll first end up in some SP class or other like the ZL1.


Norm

I was demoted to track days... Japan and Germany and you can get ALL kinds of usable used track prepped cars in Japan and Germany. I haven't seen a regional since '98-'99, even then, I wasn't any good. I am limited to open track days unless the heats are only 6-7 laps. I think I could manage some compact classes. Something that generates less speed and less g's. Even with a harness, the pivoting of destroyed disc against one another breaks my concentration. I can't get in a groove or even get a speed high due to pain. I wrecked a 3rd Gen pretty decently and I was done F'ing around (I was actually asked to leave)...

I am still in therapy and strengthening my core. I may try again but, it's been too long to do anything amateur.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Even with a harness, the pivoting of destroyed disc against one another breaks my concentration. I can't get in a groove or even get a speed high due to pain. I wrecked a 3rd Gen pretty decently and I was done F'ing around (I was actually asked to leave)....

Welcome to a club you never wanted to join. Somewhere there is X-ray evidence of some disc of mine not being what it should be either, which I've been dealing with off and on for just over 40 years at this point. So far, a little Tylenol and wearing a weightlifter's belt on bad days, and a little exercise (but not too much) has been enough to keep it under reasonable control.

I know that Mustang owner, really friendly guy, kind of a DIY'er squared (welded up that Mustang's mufflers from sheetmetal). He's got another build in progress - an early AMX with a slightly stretched wheelbase . . .

I'm still not getting notices, so I'm resigned to be playing catch-up on a permanent basis. At least this site only has 5 separate forums.


Norm

 

[thePill]

Shelby America announces that GT350 post production Mustang's will end in December 2013. http://www.mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles/1307_shelby_american_announced_end_of_gt350/ Most agree this lines up with the 2015 GT350 launch.

Shelby American has just announced that production will end for the Shelby GT350 Ford Mustang. The 2013 model year will be the last for the limited-run Shelby Mustang and orders will be taken until December 31, 2013. It will be business as usual for all other Shelby performance cars.

The Shelby GT350 is one of the world’s most celebrated, iconic muscle cars.​

“The Shelby GT350 is one of the world’s most celebrated, iconic muscle cars,” said John Luft, president of Shelby American. “When we unveiled this latest version of the Shelby GT350, we promised it would be built for a limited time to preserve its collectability and value. So we’ve been preparing for this day since 2010. In true Carroll Shelby fashion, we’re planning our next ultimate performance Shelby model.”


Shelby American, the wholly owned subsidiary of Carroll Shelby International Inc., is a company that makes history and repeats it successfully. The Shelby GT350 was first built in 1965 and was continued in small numbers for 1966 and 1967, making these cars a valuable piece to any collection.
Introduced again in 2011, the 45th Anniversary Shelby GT350 were all coupes and were painted Competition White with Guardsmen Blue stripes, just like the first GT350 produced in 1965. In 2012, new hues were added including red, blue, and anniversary black/gold to celebrate 50 years for Shelby American. A convertible option became available just like it was back in 1966. For the current GT350 model, Shelby American repeats history again by expanding with even more color options to choose from as well as styling upgrades, and equipment choices while still maintaining performance.


“The Shelby GT350’s rich history is well-documented,” said Shelby American Vice President of Production Gary Davis. “People value that heritage and tell us that they want this car to equal that exclusivity. We’re staying true to our commitment to deliver a small-block car with high performance, unique styling, and collectability in a way that honors our heritage.”
The Shelby GT350 was built to be lightweight and powerful with a “small-block” 5.0L stuffed under the hood. Starting with your run-of-the-mill stock Mustang GT, every piece of the car is amplified or replaced to make this a performance beast just like it was back in the 1960s.


“We’ve taken another page out of the ‘Carroll Shelby playbook’,” said Luft. “In the ever-evolving automotive market, we continue to adapt to meet customer needs. While we’ll look back on the current GT350 with great love and devotion, as Carroll always said, ‘our favorite car is the next one we build.’”
If interested in a limited-edition Shelby GT350, orders will still be taken for the 2012-2014 model years until December 31st. Starting on the 1st of January, Shelby American will drop production and close the chapter on the present day GT350 Mustang. Production continues on the GT500 Super Snake, Shelby GTS, Shelby 1000, and Shelby Raptor truck as well as the Shelby Focus ST.
Build Your Dream Shelby at http://www.shelbyamerican.com/buildone/2013GT350-Exterior.asp Customers can also contact Shelby American sales at 702/942-7325 or visit www.shelbyamerican.com.

​

This could possibly leave a $70,000 non-track ready stripper in a very bad light. You have a very large chance of being trumped at every avenue when something like this is right around the corner.

Here is the latest shots of the Z28 at Indy (Where Chevy hopes to form a special Indy 500 just for the Z28). Looking extremely square, almost NASCAR-like. The rear has got to go and the front is something only a "Father" could love.

Man does the Camaro's tail lights look great on the Corvette. Team Corvette really made the Afterburners work on the C7.

In my opinion, the front of the Camaro has been destroyed. The Camaro will continue to evolve into the corporate Chevy grill. Very, very little airflow here... Very poor design and very unattractive.

Looks like a Dart loved a Taurus once....

I'm not a fan of the '13 Mustang's hood louvers so it almost goes without saying I don't like the Mohawk. Why no Jay Leno hood? That thing was awesome.

 

[thePill]

No love for the front end. The whole car has become far too blocky for a sports coupe. Originally, I bet they intended to create more muscle but ended up with an inbred 3rd and 5th Gen. The rear is the laziest I have seen in a while but I'm more upset abput the '14' front in general. I liked the 5th Gens' 3/4 stance at about mid-height looking down. Well, it's ruined now, my opinion, it was the money shot for the car... now it's gone... Why? I don't really care anymore. Probably a decision driven by low demand and even lower sales. Equally as ill-thought as the decision to make a race car that isn't permitted on the race track nor recommended for drag racing.

I want to hear more about this super series Chevy is trying to get created so the Z28 can compete. That's only going to take a decade. Let's get it sanctioned in one of the 24 classes available to RWD cars here in America. As they use to say with the 2009 GT500 on a road course "What's all the power good for if it can't use it?".

The Corvette program is indeed destroying the Camaro program. The Corvette is 100% more productive in it's respected classes. Even if the Z28 could legally be run in an armature or pro series, it still doesn't mean it's gonna perform the way Chevy says... and the way the pre-production magazine cars are gonna run. The ZL1 owners are STILL running 12.6 in the 1/4 mile and they are just fine with it. I remember when the 2007 GT500 ran a 12.7 and it was the WORLD's SLOWEST 500HP CAR!!! Well, according to Chevy, that ZL1 runs 11.9 all day, everyday. The 1LE wins every magazine comparison but can't manage to pass a single non-Brembo 5.0 in T2.

Now, Chevy has eliminated every possible avenue we Mustang owners can call BS. No drag racing, No road racing, No street racing... WHY?!?!?!

 

[Red]

I always enjoy your posts, Pill. Agree with all opinions above except possibly the one re little airflow through the front. I suspect there's more there than one might think, depending on ducting behind the fascia. Have to see the wind tunnel tests or (good) CFD results to really know, though.

 

[thePill]

I always enjoy your posts, Pill. Agree with all opinions above except possibly the one re little airflow through the front. I suspect there's more there than one might think, depending on ducting behind the fascia. Have to see the wind tunnel tests or (good) CFD results to really know, though.

It's very restrictive... The ZL1 had to continue using the old fascia due to airflow. If one would happen to option the air conditioning, the AC condenser is going to go right in front of the lower opening. The Z28 should not be equipped with air conditioning at all.

 

[Red]

If you -know- it to not flow enough, then that's that. But from an exterior perspective only, it looks adequate. Has what appears to be decent area in a high pressure region -- with a decent sized front splitter to increase pressure in the region.

But, what's unseen behind the fascia is also very important. I know next to nothing about the current Camaro, so forgive the following: is the cooling stack immediately behind the bumper? If so, that will hurt cooling performance.

Looking more closely at the pix, is the top 1/3 or so of the lower opening actually blocked off w/ black plastic? If so, that's a large amount of flow area to lose. And that loss of area may well be enough to put cooling on the edge.

Taking you at your word, that this thing has insufficient airflow through the front hence inadequate cooling, then what the h3ll was the Camaro team thinking? A supposed track car w/ insufficient cooling?! Jeez...

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