2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

4V Mayhem · Jan 23, 2018

millhouse said:
Funny, even the people testing these two cars didn't think 0.4 seconds was losing by "a lot".

"The first takeaway is that despite being way down on power and torque, the Shelby was only 0.39 second slower around Big Willow than the ZL1. That’s impressive but not surprising."

"Even a cursory glance at the speed trace (above) should leave you wondering, How the heck does the GT350R wind up only 70 feet behind the ZL1 at the checkered flag?”

Had this been the 1LE vs the GT350...you and every other camaro fanboy would consider this a ties...and say the 1LE is the GT350's equal. Hell, you say that now even though the two have never been tested together.

The reviews say otherwise.

In regards to the GT500’s drieability…
“Not surprising, over the few seams and road irregularities we did encounter, the softer setting seemed to absorb the imperfections, while sport relayed every nook and cranny. It doesn’t rattle your teeth but it feels noticeably firmer. “

“Even with all this newfound power, the 2013 GT500 is more livable and user friendly than it ever was before. “

The only complaint about the GT500 was that it had a solid rear axle which made it less complaint over bumpy roads than an IRS equipped vehicle.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-shelby-gt500-first-test/

The Zl11LE

“I know Jonny loves this car, but I just can’t warm to it. Probably because I’ve lost all my fillings, and my kidneys are bruised. With the exception of the best roads, the ride in this Camaro is punishing. I’ve encountered smoother paint mixers. I had to remind myself that based on the numbers, this car is fantastic. Endless grip, fade-free brakes, abundant horsepower. But the thing is, I didn’t care. The bouncing was so bad that I found myself reacting to that instead of focusing on sheer act of driving. The Camaro might be brilliant on the track, but I wouldn’t want to drive this to get there.”

http://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-camaro-zl1-1le-4th-place-2017-best-drivers-car/

And the thing is, these guys typically LOVE raw cars….so for them to say the drivability is as bad as it is truly is saying something.

“This car needs five-point harnesses because the dampers are so unforgiving. It’s true this 1LE has incredible grip; however, the compression damping is way too harsh while the rebound damping is just right. I’m not sure where they tuned this, but it clearly did not have a lot of bumps and jumps.”

I won’t ever own either, so the results I could care less about. At least we will finally be comparing cars on more level playing field (FI vs FI instead of FI vs NA).

Discussion about it is fine, but pretending that the outcome somehow diminishes the value or places an “win” for one vehicle over the other is flat out dumb. Kind of like matching the PP1 against the 1LE when the PP2 was going to be out 2 months later….a car that was actually meant to compete.

Losing is losing. Get over it already. You can harp on 0.4 seconds and HP and TQ all you want. You can call me a fanboy all you want. For the record, between the two cars I would take a ZL1 over a GT350R. But that is besides the point. The GT350R (arguably) handles better. But not good enough to overcome the hp/tq deficit. Plain and simple. If you have some equation where the 0.4 and the extra hp and tq of the ZL1 means something other than the R losing then good for you. But regardless, that test was months ago and you're still here harping on it. It's over. If it had lost by 0.04 seconds it is still a loss. At least it won the overall shootout. Be happy about that. I'm sure someone somewhere is formulating equations similar to yours where the subjective loss doesn't mean much or whatever. If that makes them happy, and if you're math makes you happy, then so be it.

ALUSA · Jan 23, 2018

The only reason GT350 and R version being compared to the ZL1 is due their pricing per performance. Not even the “Suggested” pricing but mainly out of pocket which is the real value of the car on the eyes of the dealers. Unfortunately Ford followed suit GM’s Z28 pricing and actually for once did benchmark their performance against their rival back in the day. Ford could have priced their GT350’s similar to Boss 302’s mid 40’s and maybe high 40’s for the R version, but they couldn’t. So much money went into the development of the 5.2 fpc engine and they even tried to save weight with carbon fiber wheels on the R version. This all cost money. If the overall car wouldn’t have weight that heavy, they wouldn’t had to go that route i am pretty sure.

GM on the otherhand have the corvette’s part bin advantage for the camaro unlike Ford. If Ford did, the gt and gt350 would have been the same car unless the gt350 weight around 3300 lbs ( it should have been). So now due to pricing Ford has another problem in their hands because the upcoming GT500 will be up there with a loaded ZO6 Corvette money not even ZL1 1LE camaro. Different platform, 4 vs 2 seater, but people who actually buy these cars for performance and drivability reasons don’t even bother with things like back seats or trunk space. Lets be honest, you wouldn’t want to fit 4 track tires in any of these cars depending how wide the tires are i guess.

jake_zx2 · Jan 23, 2018

ALUSA said:
Lets be honest, you wouldn’t want to fit 4 track tires in any of these cars depending how wide the tires are i guess.

I can attest to this, even fitting my *narrow* 275/18 square setup in my mustang is a pain in the ass, especially when I'm trying not to scuff up the seats.

But on a side note, I agree with most of what you said except this: "Different platform, 4 vs 2 seater, but people who actually buy these cars for performance and drivability reason don’t even bother with things like back seats or trunk space". See, I'm all about the performance of my cars. Hell, I have 2 dailies and a motorcycle, so utility isn't even something I NEED to worry about. However, I like that if I decide to take my mustang to work one day, and we all decide to go out for lunch, I can still take them. I personally like having 4 seats and some trunk space, even if I don't use them often, just as peace of mind. Plus, competing in the "Sedan" segment with a mustang against M3s and such is (IMO) much better than competing in the "sports car" segment with a corvette against Ferraris, mclarens, etc.

millhouse · Jan 23, 2018

4V Mayhem said:
Losing is losing. Get over it already. You can harp on 0.4 seconds and HP and TQ all you want. You can call me a fanboy all you want. For the record, between the two cars I would take a ZL1 over a GT350R. But that is besides the point. The GT350R (arguably) handles better. But not good enough to overcome the hp/tq deficit. Plain and simple. If you have some equation where the 0.4 and the extra hp and tq of the ZL1 means something other than the R losing then good for you. But regardless, that test was months ago and you're still here harping on it. It's over. If it had lost by 0.04 seconds it is still a loss. At least it won the overall shootout. Be happy about that. I'm sure someone somewhere is formulating equations similar to yours where the subjective loss doesn't mean much or whatever. If that makes them happy, and if you're math makes you happy, then so be it.

LOL...oh boy. Handles better, brakes better...does everything better damn near with an EXTREME HP and torque deficit. With ZL1 prices dropping like a rock, you should pick one up....they are damn near as cheap as a GT in some cases.

1320' · Jan 23, 2018

ALUSA said:
The only reason GT350 and R version being compared to the ZL1 is due their pricing per performance. Not even the “Suggested” pricing but mainly out of pocket which is the real value of the car on the eyes of the dealers. Unfortunately Ford followed suit GM’s Z28 pricing and actually for once did benchmark their performance against their rival back in the day. Ford could have priced their GT350’s similar to Boss 302’s mid 40’s and maybe high 40’s for the R version, but they couldn’t. So much money went into the development of the 5.2 fpc engine and they even tried to save weight with carbon fiber wheels on the R version. This all cost money. If the overall car wouldn’t have weight that heavy, they wouldn’t had to go that route i am pretty sure.

GM on the otherhand have the corvette’s part bin advantage for the camaro unlike Ford. If Ford did, the gt and gt350 would have been the same car unless the gt350 weight around 3300 lbs ( it should have been). So now due to pricing Ford has another problem in their hands because the upcoming GT500 will be up there with a loaded ZO6 Corvette money not even ZL1 1LE camaro. Different platform, 4 vs 2 seater, but people who actually buy these cars for performance and drivability reasons don’t even bother with things like back seats or trunk space. Lets be honest, you wouldn’t want to fit 4 track tires in any of these cars depending how wide the tires are i guess.

I really don't think you understand anything about the cost of manufacture on cars if you think Ford could have produced a 3,300lb GT350 (some 450lbs less than a GTPP) that was only in the mid $40,000 range price wise.

ALUSA · Jan 23, 2018

1320' said:
I really don't think you understand anything about the cost of manufacture on cars if you think Ford could have produced a 3,300lb GT350 (some 450lbs less than a GTPP) that was only in the mid $40,000 range price wise.

No you got my interpretation wrong. That is not what I meant. If the GT350 was 3300 lbs it would have deserved its price point similar to the vette and price per performance wise it would be on par with the ZL1 even though its down on power and torque. Nobody is expecting a 3300 lbs car to cost mid 40's. The Boss 302 was around 3600 lbs to begin with.

jake_zx2 · Jan 23, 2018

I mean, the R is in the same price range as a Corvette Z51, and just based on pure numbers, they aren't too far apart in performance

Baron95 · Jan 23, 2018

jake_zx2 said:
I mean, the R is in the same price range as a Corvette Z51, and just based on pure numbers, they aren't too far apart in performance

That is only if you look at MSRP.

The reality is that you can buy Z51 Vettes and Grand Sports Vettes all day, without any drama, and with substantial discounts from MSRP.

Buying a GT350-R is a drama fest. You have to deal with the "it's special", "it's limited production", "it has dealer mark up".

In fact, the GT350-R is second only to the Ford GT in the buying drama department.

Grimace427 · Jan 23, 2018

Baron95 said:
That is only if you look at MSRP.

The reality is that you can buy Z51 Vettes and Grand Sports Vettes all day, without any drama, and with substantial discounts from MSRP.

Buying a GT350-R is a drama fest. You have to deal with the "it's special", "it's limited production", "it has dealer mark up".

In fact, the GT350-R is second only to the Ford GT in the buying drama department.

More people want them over corvettes? :shrug:

ALUSA · Jan 23, 2018

jake_zx2 said:
I mean, the R is in the same price range as a Corvette Z51, and just based on pure numbers, they aren't too far apart in performance

Not really. Even the base gt350 500 mile radius of me shows $53g vs Z51 51g. This was on cars.com. Don’t look at the MSRP.

1320' · Jan 23, 2018

ALUSA said:
Not really. Even the base gt350 500 mile radius of me shows $53g vs Z51 51g. This was on cars.com. Don’t look at the MSRP.

Why not look at the MSRP? Price above or below MSRP is largely dependent on region.

MSRP is the only fair measure.

millhouse · Jan 23, 2018

1320' said:
Why not look at the MSRP? Price above or below MSRP is largely dependent on region.

MSRP is the only fair measure.

Indeed, and it's extremely easy to shop cars across the country.

jake_zx2 · Jan 23, 2018

1320' said:
Why not look at the MSRP? Price above or below MSRP is largely dependent on region.

MSRP is the only fair measure.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeexactly.

Price at dealerships vary. It’s simply about what people are WILLING to pay for the car. Just means there is greater demand for the mustang than the corvette. But ultimately, dealer prices vary greatly. You can find GT350s in the high 40s just like you can find corvettes in the high 40s. MSRP is the only standard, as that’s the price the manufacturer intends to sell the vehicle at. Anything above or below that is just the beauty of capitalism at work

jake_zx2 · Jan 23, 2018

And besides, the Chevy guys LOVE talking about MSRP when it comes to the $50k mustang GT that, in reality, can be had in the low $30k region

4V Mayhem · Jan 23, 2018

millhouse said:
LOL...oh boy. Handles better, brakes better...does everything better damn near with an EXTREME HP and torque deficit. With ZL1 prices dropping like a rock, you should pick one up....they are damn near as cheap as a GT in some cases.

Dropping like a rock? Where? You're seeing used prices. Or you're seeing prices with every possible rebate applied...like if you're an ex-military/single mom/college grad customer who also is trading in a Mustang or Challenger (conquest rebate) while also trading in a Camaro (loyalty rebate). If all of those apply to one single person then yes you could get the price dropped like a rock. LOL!! For the record, used prices of the Shelby, Hellcat, and ZL1 are all in the same range.

And again, your comment about how much it brakes and does everything better just shows that the ZL1 has way too much power for the GT350R to overcome. Both companies approached it differently and it appears that the name of the game is power.

2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

4V Mayhem

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ALUSA

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jake_zx2

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millhouse

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1320'

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ALUSA

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jake_zx2

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Baron95

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Grimace427

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ALUSA

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1320'

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millhouse

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jake_zx2

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jake_zx2

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4V Mayhem

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