2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

Discussion in 'Ford Mustang versus?' started by Teezlr, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. nastang87xx

    nastang87xx Well-Known Member

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    #481 nastang87xx, Jan 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
    No. A Ferrari F430 can't even do all of this and yet it's considered a supercar.

    This thread needs to just stop now. The amount of split hairs and also the obscene comparisons of tomato and tomahto are just so out of hand, you can't even grip it anymore.

    Back on topic'ish, since the thread was about the Camaro vs Mustang but is now a semantics war. Supercars are a TRICKLE DOWN trigger of exclusivity, ideology, design, technology, performance, aesthetic, and tier level. All of these attributes need to contribute to lesser cars saying "oh! we need that in 5 - 10 years!" And here's the problem with supercars. Modern every day sports cars ("every day", if you will) have started to see a lot of supercar tech and design but the supercar needle hasn't moved much. Carbon ceramic brakes in $75K Camaros, 200 MPH in shit box plastic interior S197 Shelby GT500's, 48205 way traction control systems in $65K Corvettes, 1.00+ skidpad numbers on ragamuffin Mustangs...

    But now sports cars of certain lineages like Corvettes are starting to dip into supercar range of price and performance...or are they? Is the idea of the supercar obsolete? Maybe it is. A Huracan costs $250K. A 488 GTB costs $300K. Absolutely supercars or at least most would think. Then there's a $140K ZR1 or a $150K Nissan GTR Nismo that absolutely is in the same performance conversation. They all use exotic materials. Both are the top tiers of their respective manufacturers. Both are mind numbing capable on track and the streets. But why isn't a GTR Nismo or a ZR1 considered a supercar? Frankly I don't know. I don't consider them supercars either. But if one were to ask me, I'd have a hard time conveying my thought to you, although I that thought is very much there. It's just very hard to explain.

    Supercars of what we consider supercars really aren't moving the bar with as big of margins as they used to. You couldn't have the same conversation with a C5 Z06 with a 360 Modena as we do with a present day Z06 and a 488 GTB. Are there quality and tolerance differences between the two? Oh yeah. But is that how we measure supercars now? How tight the body panels are to each other? Because the performance line and even the exclusivity line has certainly been blurred.

    Lamborghini sold as many Huracans as Ford sold GT350R's. That bursts the exclusivity bubble.

    A USED 2013 GT500 will damn near match a current day R8 V10 on top speed. Forget the 200 MPH club to identify a supercar.

    A GTR Nismo crosses streams with the NSX's price point.

    The Viper ACR stops harder than just about anything on 4 wheels short of driving off a cliff.

    It goes on and on and on...

    If we were to identify supercars as they were defined 25 years ago, then the only REAL true supercars of today are the 918, the Ferrari TheFerrari, the P1, The 911 GT2 RS, Koenigsegg anything, the Aventador LP-750 SV, Bugatti anything, and maybe a few others.




    /end thread
     
  2. Baron95

    Baron95 Well-Known Member

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    [MENTION=24829]jake_zx2[/MENTION]

    We don't have perfect data - same day, same driver, same track, same methodology between the Ford GT and Z06, or between the SS1LE and the (non R) GT350, etc.

    So the discussion is around getting some data points, that are indicative of relative performance.

    And the datapoints are that both the base GT350 and Ford GT underwhelm in the track performance department.

    The Ford GT specifically is only 200 lbs lighter than the Z06/ZR1, understeers at the limit (which is astounding for a mid-rear engined car), has brakes that didn't inspire confidence (all Randy's words), middling skid pad and figure 8 numbers, etc.

    It is not a word class performance for a $450K purpose built sports car. It simply isn't. Maybe partly because Ford didn't challenge itself to put it on the Nring to benchmark against their peers.

    Whatever you say about the Nring, the value in it is that a car needs to maintain track pace for 7+min, without overheating brakes, transmission, tires, engine, diff, etc. That is the value.

    For example, a PP2 (no coolers) may very well do a decent lap time at Lime Rock Park (cold and short), but fail miserably at the Nring once it gets to the 5 min mark and everything starts to overheat. It is a valuable test, that shows "this car can keep it up for 7 or 8 min".
     
  3. millhouse

    millhouse Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious about these datapoints. C&D destroyed the lap time record in the GT at VIR.

    And yet, by all accounts the GT is an amazing car to drive. The Z06 on the other hand can be flat out dangerous to drive at the limits.

    And for the record, Rand prefers a car with a slight amount of understeer...his words not mine.

    And again, it's astounding people keep on laying claim to skid pad and figure 8 titles. The last time I checked, you don't get a trophy for either of those.

    Ford (along with many other manufacturers) knows the ring is a bullshit track. There is nothing to prove on it.

    As for being a world class performance car....most publications (and owners) would disagree. 7000 people lined up for the first 250 car allotment.



    Funny, the Z06 completed the ring in record time yet overheats in as many as 1 lap at tracks here in the US.

    As stated by others, the ring is a glory track and often comes down to what driver has the biggest balls. It is irrelevant when comparing to normal tracks across the world. Hell, even folks at motortrend have made comments on on such.

    And conversely...again, the Z06 can do great at the ring and overheat at Laguna Seca. There goes that theory. :headbonk:
     
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  4. 1320'

    1320' Well-Known Member

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    So what is your purpose on this forum?

    It's obviously not to buy or enjoy talking about the 2015+ Mustang, and you're not entertaining the idea of owning one..

    So what's the story?
     
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  5. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. A super car isn't something that most people can purchase, and it isn't going to be found sitting at your local Chevy or Ford dealership.

    I think the Ford GT fits into the super car realm, but just barely. But you won't see one of those available for purchase at the local dealership. I would put the Pantera as a past Lincoln Mercury product as being arguably near, but not quite super car status. If someone argued with me enough it wouldn't be hard to get me to buy into the Pantera being in that exclusive club.

    The Corvette is a fast sports car though. It's cool and all. But it's too common and not exclusive enough to fit into super car status in my opinion.
     
  6. Baron95

    Baron95 Well-Known Member

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    1 - Have fun, take short breaks from boring work.

    2 - Discuss things I love - affordable performance cars that do great on track days.

    3 - Try to gain insight to the question of "how is the PP2 likely to perform vs the SS1LE" as I "need" to buy a new track car by early April.

    4 - Try to shame Ford into joining more fully the glorious quest (started by GM) of giving consumers like me "ready to track" affordable cars.

    5 - Apparently annoy people (like you ?) who are so defensive about Ford's shortcomings that they need to constantly question the motives of those who bring data to the discussion.
     
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  7. nastang87xx

    nastang87xx Well-Known Member

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    And it seems like the McLaren 720S has already cornholed the Ford GT in most performance categories. The driving experience? Well I'm not rich enough for either of the two so...
     
  8. JohnnyUtah

    JohnnyUtah Well-Known Member

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    Who cares? Is that why you buy a car? To make sure everyone around you has a hard on for it?

    Guess what? Most guys I know that actually track cars don't even go to cars and coffee. The real show is at the track.
     
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  9. 4V Mayhem

    4V Mayhem Well-Known Member

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    So forum talk is the say all end all now? I just posted several reliable trustworthy official sources including the DuPont Registry which all list the Z06 and/or ZR1 as supercars and your reply is forum posts of owners arguing over the term? That is your reply? I could post up way more sources that have these 2 cars listed as Supercars if you want.
    A poor man's Porsche? Ok. We're not talking standard Vettes son. We're talking about the Z06 and the ZR1. There is nothing poor about either of those cars. And there is nothing poor about the standard Vette either for that matter. Let's put aside your obsession with thinking that you're hurting people's feelings because you obviously aren't. Let's act like rational adults who can hold an intelligent conversation without the typical internet insults. There are people who prefer Corvettes over Porsches just like some people prefer the GT350 over a Vette. But to downplay it's performance makes you no better than the C6 forum crowd that you constantly put down. Now maybe this is all some attempt to piss them off. Maybe you think they're reading your comments and getting mad. Maybe you think they're over here trolling. I don't know. If that is the case and you do think that way then there is no way we can have a realistic conversation on this matter. The Z06 and ZR1 are both Supercars. They are defined by multiple official sources as such. They outperform the Shelby. The base Z06 is right around the price of a similarly optioned GT350R yet the Z06 will outperform the Shelby. These cars are nothing to scoff at. Your hatred aside, you have to acknowledge facts and those are facts. You don't have to like it, you don't have to like the other forum members, whatever. But you can't just go around pouting and saying whatever you want simply because you don't like the car. If you can't respond maturely and realistically to this then this conversation is over.
     
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  10. millhouse

    millhouse Well-Known Member

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    If I wanted a car that everyone around me has a hard on for, I wouldn't have bought a mustang.

     
  11. Baron95

    Baron95 Well-Known Member

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    Can we get back to discussing performance, please?

    The Ford GT and the ZR1 are in the same performance category, but they are not in the same exclusivity category. The ZR1 may be slightly faster (or not), but the Ford GT is *a lot* more exclusive.

    Similarly, the GT350 and SS1LE are in the same performance category, but not in the same exclusivity category. The GT350 is a special car (based on Ford's goals, pricing and production limits). The SS1LE is not (and neither will be the PP1/PP2).

    There has to be a thread on "exclusivity", "specialness", "collectability" that you guys can discuss this stuff. This thread should be about track performance - "track times compared" (title).
     
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  12. 4V Mayhem

    4V Mayhem Well-Known Member

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    Affordable? Affordable to whom? How many people can afford a base model car that MSRPs at $80K?? For that matter how many people can afford a car that costs even half that? The GT350R MSRP was like $65K. How many people could even afford that? BTW, the GT350R is listed as a Supercar also. Were you aware of that? DO you agree with it? Just curious.
    The Yukon Denali and Escalade are high end full size luxury 4WD SUVs with more options than most of us know exist. How is the price a comparison at all? And again, how many people can afford a Z06? Realistically. I'm not saying it is unobtainable. Obviously some people can afford it. But in all reality, if you financed it and put $15,000 on it you'd have a car payment of around $1100 a month. Again, how many people have enough money to afford it or justify it or could even get financing for it? And sure, a fully options GT convertible will be over $50K by a lot. How many people here can afford that? That is GT350 pricing and I didn't quite see lots of people buying them up.
    Again. I posted several links all from reliable sources saying that it was. I'm not talking about internet opinion or what you call "affordability" or urban legend or folklore. It is listed as a Supercar by a variety of different sources each of whom are well established as reliable and trustworthy and each of whom can be considered officiates of this type of information. YOU don't want to acknowledge that. And this is going nowhere. So I will concede that you personally don't think it is nor do you want it to be. But it is defined as such.
    Ok...??
     
  13. Trackaholic

    Trackaholic Well-Known Member

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    My impression of your reasons:

    1. True

    2. Maybe. Seems like you are mostly here to bash the Mustang and hype the 1LE.

    3. B.S. You’ve made it quite clear that the PP2 is crap compared to the 1LE. I don’t think you really care about the PP2 at all. Just buy the 1LE already!

    4. AHA! This I believe. I especially like how you still find a way to hype GM and dig at Ford.

    5. Your actions are pretty clear. Not surprised that some are getting annoyed.

    I look forward further discussion and data :-)

    -T
     
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  14. Trackaholic

    Trackaholic Well-Known Member

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    I suspect the 1LE will end up being more exclusive than the GT350.

    -T
     
  15. mvfjet

    mvfjet Well-Known Member

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    Not due to production limits. Nobody wants them! Haha. A dealer near me has 5 or 6 1LE's. All of them $4500 off. The performance impresses me but I just can't do it. $10k off? Maybe I'd consider it.
     
  16. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 Well-Known Member

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    my mustang made it 7 or 8 minutes with mild street/track pads, upgraded suspension, 275 tires (barely DOT approved, and actually illegal in Germany) and absolutely nothing else, and had absolutely no problems with heat after 5 laps or so. Only time I had issues was when I cheaped out on brake pads and they disintegrated after turn 15 or so. Again, Nürburgring is not a great test of a car’s ability, it’s a test of a driver’s ability
     
  17. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 Well-Known Member

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    Again, if you want to bring up the title of the thread, then stop talking about corvettes. This is quite obviously a mustang-camaro thread. I’m sure there’s a thread somewhere on corvette vs Ford GT, but this thread should be about the mustang and camaro

    See how that works? Talking about a different car I saw exactly the same as talking about a different purpose for a car
     
  18. Baron95

    Baron95 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough - that one little comment about the ZR1 likely being faster than the Ford GT, really caused a giant detour.

    However, in my defense, the Camaro and Corvette do share a lot of running gear, engineering, tuning, etc. When Chevy for instance launched the C7 Z06 we knew a year ahead of time what engine the ZL1 would have.

    There is a very important point to this story. GM can pour a lot more money into the alpha platform, because it is shared with the Cadillac ATS, CTS, and they also can rely on Corvette running gear. Between the ATS-V, CTS-V, Camaro, Corvette GM can really invest in the platform.

    It would be inconceivable that Ford, having only the Mustang as a front-engine rear wheel drive car platform, could invest anywhere near the same amount.

    So yes, while this is about Corvette and Mustang, the R&D muscle behind the platforms is very much influenced by their corporate siblings and cousins.
     
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  19. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and that’s a great point, but I don’t think it’s all-telling. If that were really that much of an advantage, the camaro would severely outperform the mustang with the sameness equipment, but I’m sure we’d find that a PP1 vs SS compare woul come out with the 2 cars about even (that compare was done in 2016 when the 6g camaro first came out, and the cars were only separated by one point. However, the camaro excelled in track performance where the mustang excelled in street performance. I feel that the refresh would close the gap a bit more in both categories
     
  20. Baron95

    Baron95 Well-Known Member

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    #500 Baron95, Jan 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
    I have no idea what you are talking about. But I can tell you that I'd not enjoy driving a car with a lot of understeer [corrected typo] in the Nring or any other track with fast turns that you do a ton of acceleration through. There is nothing I despise more than a car that forces you to back out of accelerating out of a turn because of lack of front end grip. I like to roll the gas to the point where the rear is threatening to move - that is nirvana.

    On top of that the comments in the review were that the Ford GT had significant and annoying turbo lag. The second thing I despise the most - not being able to properly bring in the power. Randy said "I had to drive to the lag". How awful is that on a $450K car?

    Lag and difficulty in modulating throttle combined with understeer. Not a combination to recommend. I think qualitatively the ZR1, with its very linear, no turbo lag, power delivery, great PTM modes to choose from, and no understeer will score higher than the Ford GT on driving feel/dynamics in any head to head.
     
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