Corvette ZR1 vs. Mustang GTD Track Battle

[MAGS1]

when it’s demonstrably inferior to the competition

There is no competition. Camaro is coming back as a 4 door, there is no indication there will be a coupe. The new V8 it is getting is the new LS6 that was developed for the new Grand Sport. GM is having issues with some of their V8’s, TBD on this one. Charger/Challenger never really was a competitor to the Mustang, different type of car. We’ll see what Stellantis comes up with, but if the current Charger is any indication, I’m not holding my breath. The number of 2 door, 4 seat coupes with a V8 is virtually zero outside of Mustang. Ford isn’t going to spend billions on an entirely new platform if they don’t have to (lack of competition). Rumor is the 8th gen will be a new platform, TBD I guess. S650 was supposed to be a new platform but that never happened.

Ford is going to stick with coyote based motors. They’re tried and true. You won’t see another Voodoo, that was for S550 GT350 only. There’s rumors/bread crumbs that a 5.4L NA V8 is coming to a Mustang trim soon, I’m keeping an eye out for that.

Im excited for a Mustang performance sedan, I may consider one when it comes out. Use it as a daily and take my fastback off of daily duties. Ford is doing things with Mustang, it may not be wholesale changes (other than the 4 door Mustang), but what is their incentive to do so when the competition isn’t pushing them to and the sales don’t back it up? The number of people screaming on this forum isn’t enough to drive sales to warrant a total overhaul. The costs would outweigh the sales by a huge margin, you’d be staring at an extremely expensive car to recoup all the R&D. The car market has changed, just look at the last handful of years of S550 sales. Slow decline. That should tell you all you need to know about why Ford is making some of the decisions they are. The demand isn’t there like it used to be. I’m just thankful Mustang is still around, maybe others should be as well.

And before you scream that GM developed a new Vette platform, that work probably started 10 years ago now and the base price of the lowest trim is $70k. People would have a shit fit if a base Mustang cost $70k. That’s the price of a total overhaul with low sales volume cars. You want a $70k base Mustang? I don’t. Can still get a base GT for +\- $45K

Ford is in business to make money, they’re not going to develop things that are going to lose them money. They’ve done enough of that already with their flop of an EV push.

Sponsored

 

[9secondko]

There is no competition. Camaro is coming back as a 4 door, there is no indication there will be a coupe. The new V8 it is getting is the new LS6 that was developed for the new Grand Sport. GM is having issues with some of their V8’s, TBD on this one. Charger/Challenger never really was a competitor to the Mustang, different type of car. We’ll see what Stellantis comes up with, but if the current Charger is any indication, I’m not holding my breath. The number of 2 door, 4 seat coupes with a V8 is virtually zero outside of Mustang. Ford isn’t going to spend billions on an entirely new platform if they don’t have to (lack of competition). Rumor is the 8th gen will be a new platform, TBD I guess. S650 was supposed to be a new platform but that never happened.

Ford is going to stick with coyote based motors. They’re tried and true. You won’t see another Voodoo, that was for S550 GT350 only. There’s rumors/bread crumbs that a 5.4L NA V8 is coming to a Mustang trim soon, I’m keeping an eye out for that.

Im excited for a Mustang performance sedan, I may consider one when it comes out. Use it as a daily and take my fastback off of daily duties. Ford is doing things with Mustang, it may not be wholesale changes (other than the 4 door Mustang), but what is their incentive to do so when the competition isn’t pushing them to and the sales don’t back it up? The number of people screaming on this forum isn’t enough to drive sales to warrant a total overhaul. The costs would outweigh the sales by a huge margin, you’d be staring at an extremely expensive car to recoup all the R&D. The car market has changed, just look at the last handful of years of S550 sales. Slow decline. That should tell you all you need to know about why Ford is making some of the decisions they are. The demand isn’t there like it used to be. I’m just thankful Mustang is still around, maybe others should be as well.

And before you scream that GM developed a new Vette platform, that work probably started 10 years ago now and the base price of the lowest trim is $70k. People would have a shit fit if a base Mustang cost $70k. That’s the price of a total overhaul with low sales volume cars. You want a $70k base Mustang? I don’t. Can still get a base GT for +\- $45K

Ford is in business to make money, they’re not going to develop things that are going to lose them money. They’ve done enough of that already with their flop of an EV push.

GM invested in things customers want. Legendary FACTORY vehicles resulted.

Ford let its Mustang languish on the d2c platform (including s550 and 650, with bandaids, resulting in d2C+IRS if we are being honest, which is why the s550 was so much heavier) now for 21 years. They’ve saved enough money and fleeced the customer base long enough.

it’s time for an honestly new Mustang that lives up to its iconic reputation. Killing off iconic nameplates, rehashing old cars with new nameplates, barely incremental performance changes, and a new car that is basically the gt500 from SIX YEARS and one generation ago that is inexplicably way more expensive and nearly 200 lbs heavier (with only 35hp and 35tq more to make up the difference) and that is not a good thing.

sure some pee wee Bean counter may be able to buy a better house from ford selling old stuff at new prices, but the customets suffer. And Thsys not a sustainable strategy. The current gen sales are certainly a wake up call that people have caught on.

The current mustang is not a performance king nor is it a sales king. It’s just expensive for no reason.

the first three years of current mustang sales are not even 1\4 of last gen mustang sales in its first theee years. So if Ford is in the business of making money as you say, then they are a business school example of what not to do.

 

[Hack]

the Mustang GTD is what it is: an extremely overpriced factory mustang thot got shipped off to multimatic for some mods and a body kit. It really should have been the GT500 and priced accordingly. Instead, it was priced into absurdity and soundly whooped by factory corvettes that cost half as much, making the price even more absurd.

thankfully, we have the competition version coming out at some point, which can be compared with the Vette’s by the usual suspects in the real world to see how she does. Looking forward to that.
As a longtime Mustang guy, one has to wonder why Ford is getting its behind whooped on the mainstream cars, but it takes special order $400+k “competition” versions or 2 million dollar Mark 4 race cars to compete with the street legal stuff anyone can buy at a GM dealership?

it’s a rough time to be a Ford guy.

As a Ford guy, this is tough to read, but I can't disagree with the general direction of what you were saying. The "mods and body kit" is a complete mischaracterization. Period. But what Ford should have done is designed the S650 with a transaxle and SLA front and rear suspension. All S650s should have had the transaxle and the suspension. And Ford should have included a manual transaxle as an option for Mustang GT.

It would have been an expensive development investment in Mustang, but it would have enabled a leap forward in performance. The cost of the engineering and tooling would have been shared in every Mustang sold rather than concentrated in a small number of "special" GTDs that sit in rich peoples' garages.

Just like the IRS S550 is clearly superior to the stick axle S197 in road course performance, the transaxle and SLA Mustang would have been superior to those with the transmission in the nose. If the cost had been shared among all Mustangs, the regular Mustangs would be more expensive to produce, but the GTD would have cost a lot less. Closer to the DH SC.

GM invested in things customers want. Legendary FACTORY vehicles resulted.

Ford let its Mustang languish on the d2c platform (including s550 and 650, with bandaids, resulting in d2C+IRS if we are being honest, which is why the s550 was so much heavier) now for 21 years. They’ve saved enough money and fleeced the customer base long enough.

it’s time for an honestly new Mustang that lives up to its iconic reputation. Killing off iconic nameplates, rehashing old cars with new nameplates, barely incremental performance changes, and a new car that is basically the gt500 from SIX YEARS and one generation ago that is inexplicably way more expensive and nearly 200 lbs heavier (with only 35hp and 35tq more to make up the difference) and that is not a good thing.

sure some pee wee Bean counter may be able to buy a better house from ford selling old stuff at new prices, but the customets suffer. And Thsys not a sustainable strategy. The current gen sales are certainly a wake up call that people have caught on.

The current mustang is not a performance king nor is it a sales king. It’s just expensive for no reason.

the first three years of current mustang sales are not even 1\4 of last gen mustang sales in its first theee years. So if Ford is in the business of making money as you say, then they are a business school example of what not to do.

Yes, I have to agree that Ford is not building the Mustang to advance their reputation and improve. They are living off the Mustang's past reputation and putting lipstick on it and raising the price. S650 sales reflect this.

The cheapness has not been an unusual strategy for Ford, but charging so much for a car with a lot less development/improvement is unusual. Ford is positioning newer Mustangs as a premium product with their pricing, but the engineering is not premium. I would have paid a premium for a Mustang GT with a well integrated manual transaxle and SLA. Especially if Ford had offered a version with less non-performance related content. I think Ford could have sold a lot of S650s if the car was an obvious step up from S550.

I'm still holding out hope that there will be a next version of the Mustang as a 2 door and that it will be what I think the S650 should have been. It is not uncommon for the technology from the one-off cars to trickle down to regular Mustangs in a later version.

It is telling that people who criticize the top dog Mustang now have to use the premium version of the Corvette to do so. In that respect, Ford has succeeded. The GTD is a premium product and it is competitive with at least some versions of the Corvette. There is no question about that. But it should be a ~$150-200K premium product rather than a ~$330K unique, hand-built option.

 

[sdskinner73]

As a Ford guy, this is tough to read, but I can't disagree with the general direction of what you were saying. The "mods and body kit" is a complete mischaracterization. Period. But what Ford should have done is designed the S650 with a transaxle and SLA front and rear suspension. All S650s should have had the transaxle and the suspension. And Ford should have included a manual transaxle as an option for Mustang GT.

It would have been an expensive development investment in Mustang, but it would have enabled a leap forward in performance. The cost of the engineering and tooling would have been shared in every Mustang sold rather than concentrated in a small number of "special" GTDs that sit in rich peoples' garages.

Just like the IRS S550 is clearly superior to the stick axle S197 in road course performance, the transaxle and SLA Mustang would have been superior to those with the transmission in the nose. If the cost had been shared among all Mustangs, the regular Mustangs would be more expensive to produce, but the GTD would have cost a lot less. Closer to the DH SC.



Yes, I have to agree that Ford is not building the Mustang to advance their reputation and improve. They are living off the Mustang's past reputation and putting lipstick on it and raising the price.

The cheapness has not been an unusual strategy for Ford, but charging so much for a car with a lot less development/improvement is unusual. Ford is positioning newer Mustangs as a premium product with their pricing, but the engineering is not premium. I would have paid a premium for a Mustang GT with a well integrated manual transaxle and SLA. Especially if Ford had offered a version with less non-performance related content.

I'm still holding out hope that there will be a next version of the Mustang as a 2 door and that it will be what I think the S650 should have been. It is not uncommon for the technology from the one-off cars to trickle down to regular Mustangs in a later version.

It is telling that people who criticize the top dog Mustang now have to use the premium version of the Corvette to do so. In that respect, Ford has succeeded. The GTD is a premium product and it is competitive with at least some versions of the Corvette. There is no question about that. But it should be a ~$150-200K premium product rather than a ~$330K unique, hand-built option.

The direct result of hiring a CEO that claims people shouldn’t be allowed to work on their own cars because he can’t even change oil. The man is so unqualified for the job, he’s closer to fast food worker. He’s ruined the entire brand and has no real sense of direction. My S550 may very well be the newest Mustang I buy as long as he is around. Cheaper parts and higher prices are his MO.

 

[MAGS1]

because he can’t even change oil.

That’s not the reason. It’s $$$ for the dealership network and thus Ford. Farley is a track rat and a very knowledgeable car guy. Remember, he ultimately answers to the board and Ford family. What he’s doing is mostly based on what his bosses are directing him to do. Not saying he’s without blame, because he definitely deserves his share for some of the decisions made, but with public companies the primary responsibility is the shareholders not the consumers unfortunately.

 

[sdskinner73]

That’s not the reason. It’s $$$ for the dealership network and thus Ford. Farley is a track rat and a very knowledgeable car guy. Remember, he ultimately answers to the board and Ford family. What he’s doing is mostly based on what his bosses are directing him to do. Not saying he’s without blame, because he definitely deserves his share for some of the decisions made, but with public companies the primary responsibility is the shareholders not the consumers unfortunately.

I think both are true. But I don’t think k he’s a true track guy. Hes a guy who has the money to pay people to do everything, it’s not like hes in the garage figuring things out. Hes ultimately responsible for his own words, hes just another dude in a suit.

 

[robvas]

I just want to know why he brings up raptor/off-road when people ask him mustang questions

 

[Hack]

I just want to know why he brings up raptor/off-road when people ask him mustang questions

My guess is the Raptor name and products sell really well for Ford and make them money within the current regulatory environment of the US. Mustang sold really well as a cheaper, fun product, but it isn't doing as well for sales as a premium product.

I think Ford likes to sell high-margin products whenever they can. It makes sense, but the majority of their business used to always be high value products for ordinary people. I think there are a smaller number of people that want a premium Ford vs. a practical Ford.

I realize I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth a bit here advocating for a premium SLA, transaxle Mustang and then saying people don't want a premium Ford. I think Mustang can survive as a premium brand if it has premium engineering behind it. Ford pickups certainly have made the transition well.

 

[Bob Lob Law]

Farley may be a track guy, but a car guy he's not! He may like to drive, but he knows jack about cars. The guy is one of the worst CEO's of a car company out there!

 

[Hack]

The direct result of hiring a CEO that claims people shouldn’t be allowed to work on their own cars because he can’t even change oil. The man is so unqualified for the job, he’s closer to fast food worker. He’s ruined the entire brand and has no real sense of direction. My S550 may very well be the newest Mustang I buy as long as he is around. Cheaper parts and higher prices are his MO.

I think it might be ok for the cars marketed towards young women or retired people to be heavy on screens and other fluff and not as easy to repair, but I can't imagine most Mustang buyers are shopping for the biggest, best screens and graphics. Mustang people are looking for performance at a good price.

But yes, if you are so tone deaf and arrogant that you express anti-consumer views in public that is grounds for immediate termination. Also saying the engine doesn't matter is similar. It holds true for people who are looking for an appliance to get around with, but not for enthusiasts of any sort. Part of the reason I am not interested in an S650 is to me the 5.0 is tired. It's time for more cubic inches. If you aren't going to improve the chassis of the Mustang, at least improve the engine. Get rid of some complexity, add cubic inches and more durability.

 

[sdskinner73]

I think it might be ok for the cars marketed towards young women or retired people to be heavy on screens and other fluff and not as easy to repair, but I can't imagine most Mustang buyers are shopping for the biggest, best screens and graphics. Mustang people are looking for performance at a good price.

But yes, if you are so tone deaf and arrogant that you express anti-consumer views in public that is grounds for immediate termination. Also saying the engine doesn't matter is similar. It holds true for people who are looking for an appliance to get around with, but not for enthusiasts of any sort. Part of the reason I am not interested in an S650 is to me the 5.0 is tired. It's time for more cubic inches. If you aren't going to improve the chassis of the Mustang, at least improve the engine. Get rid of some complexity, add cubic inches and more durability.

Or maybe move it to the back like corvette since they couldn’t compete front engine I’m sure this will bring out haters, but I’ll say it

 

[9secondko]

As a Ford guy, this is tough to read, but I can't disagree with the general direction of what you were saying. The "mods and body kit" is a complete mischaracterization. Period. But what Ford should have done is designed the S650 with a transaxle and SLA front and rear suspension. All S650s should have had the transaxle and the suspension. And Ford should have included a manual transaxle as an option for Mustang GT.

It would have been an expensive development investment in Mustang, but it would have enabled a leap forward in performance. The cost of the engineering and tooling would have been shared in every Mustang sold rather than concentrated in a small number of "special" GTDs that sit in rich peoples' garages.

Just like the IRS S550 is clearly superior to the stick axle S197 in road course performance, the transaxle and SLA Mustang would have been superior to those with the transmission in the nose. If the cost had been shared among all Mustangs, the regular Mustangs would be more expensive to produce, but the GTD would have cost a lot less. Closer to the DH SC.



Yes, I have to agree that Ford is not building the Mustang to advance their reputation and improve. They are living off the Mustang's past reputation and putting lipstick on it and raising the price. S650 sales reflect this.

The cheapness has not been an unusual strategy for Ford, but charging so much for a car with a lot less development/improvement is unusual. Ford is positioning newer Mustangs as a premium product with their pricing, but the engineering is not premium. I would have paid a premium for a Mustang GT with a well integrated manual transaxle and SLA. Especially if Ford had offered a version with less non-performance related content. I think Ford could have sold a lot of S650s if the car was an obvious step up from S550.

I'm still holding out hope that there will be a next version of the Mustang as a 2 door and that it will be what I think the S650 should have been. It is not uncommon for the technology from the one-off cars to trickle down to regular Mustangs in a later version.

It is telling that people who criticize the top dog Mustang now have to use the premium version of the Corvette to do so. In that respect, Ford has succeeded. The GTD is a premium product and it is competitive with at least some versions of the Corvette. There is no question about that. But it should be a ~$150-200K premium product rather than a ~$330K unique, hand-built option.

I hear you. It is a tough time. But we aren’t doing ourselves or anyone else any favors by softening the hard edges of the truth. Ford has just dropped the ball on the Mustang and expected no one to say anything. And when asked about the fumbles, Farley goes off about off-road trucks and gets hauled off by handlers as of he is some malfunctioning automaton. The least they could do is pretend to listen.

regarding the GTD, it really should have just been the new GT500. The power levels are nothing crazy. The transaxle isn’t going to break the bank. The suspension is the only thing and it’s not anything new either. The old pre-alpha Camaro z28 had it before the GTD did.

A regular Mustang that uses the same engine as the old gt500, that gets shipped off to a third party for body kit, transaxle VERSION OF THE DCT and suspension IS what the GTD is in a nutshell. It’s a tuner car.
What it absolurely is NOT is a “race car made street legal” as Ford said it would be. It’s a modded out Mustang, no different than sending your car to Shelby American, etc. the only difference is the way Ford handles the car in the databases - via a VIN.

As far as comparing the GTD to a “premium” tier of Corvette, what else are we going to compare a $400k Mustang to? The thing is costs more than TWO “premium” tier corvettes. If the corvette zr1 is “premium” then what is the GTD? Unobtainable?

you dobt go comparing a near half million dollar car to a 70k stingray.

we can say “oh that’s great. It just means the mustang has come a long way. Yay.” But in reality it hasn’t. Let’s take the dark horse sc, which is nearly z06 money. At 200 lbs heavier than the old gt500 that it basically is, and only 35 hp/tq more, and if you actually want the fast one, you’re spending nearly zr1 money. Do we think it’s going to compete? That’s the actual top tier mustang. The Gtd is its own thing, put together by a tuner shop, not ford. The vette is made in GMs own factory, in-house. And even then, the Gtd gets spanked hard. It didn’t even match the car it was created specifically to beat.

I agree using economy of scale could really have done wonders to spread the love around in mustang performsnce, but that would require a ford that cares about it.

We get that the s650 generation is a money-saving extension of the s550 so ford could navigate the troubled waters of last admins EV overreach. But dang. Just where the heck are they steering the ship? They avoided the whirlpool and steered right into a typhoon.

so yes it’s tough to be a ford guy, but especially a mustang guy. And putting cotton candy around the hardball of the truth isn’t going to soften it.

hopefully somebody wakes up at the office and starts reordering who is in what seat, because it’s just not working.

 

[broncoboy22]

Farley may be a track guy, but a car guy he's not! He may like to drive, but he knows jack about cars. The guy is one of the worst CEO's of a car company out there!

This. Didn’t he say his daughter’s bf supercharged his eco boost F-150?

 

[MAGS1]

 

[robvas]

Re-

Sponsored