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C8 Corvette Z06 getting a flat plane crank!

martinjlm

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Your referring to the Lotus engine.That was built by Mercury marine engines right?
I have a LOT of history with that engine. Actually, THOSE engines. There were three incompatible versions of those engines between 1989 and 1995. My team was responsible for developing the dealer service procedures and service tools and parts kits for each iteration, and then for taking the engine out of production when the car and engine ended.
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martinjlm

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its not copying GM had modern 4 cam 32v engine in 1990-1995 Know as the LT-5 in a ZR-1 that well before the coyote was even a thought be glad they didnt stick with it they would be 15 years more advanced by now ..
Actually, GM’s history with DOHC engines goes back before the LT5 to the Quad 4 that was used in Grand Am and other vehicles for several years beginning in the mid ‘80s and then every 4- cylinder engine product that followed. Then the 3.6L V6 products that started in 2007.
 

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I have a LOT of history with that engine. Actually, THOSE engines. There were three incompatible versions of those engines between 1989 and 1995. My team was responsible for developing the dealer service procedures and service tools and parts kits for each iteration, and then for taking the engine out of production when the car and engine ended.
That was a WTF? engine to most people back in the day. I had just purchased a L98 powered Iroc in 87. And I remember most of the gear heads turned their noses up to the Lotus motor. Most of that was probably due to the complexity of working on it. Compared to the tree50s.
 

martinjlm

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That was a WTF? engine to most people back in the day. I had just purchased a L98 powered Iroc in 87. And I remember most of the gear heads turned their noses up to the Lotus motor. Most of that was probably due to the complexity of working on it. Compared to the tree50s.
That and the new GM manual transmissions out of the Muncie, Indiana plant were my introduction to the fact that US automakers do a lot more to protect the customer’s service costs than European companies. Lotus designed that engine for the best performance they could get out of it. Serviceability was an afterthought. Then, when a better way to do something came along, they went for it and could care less if the change could service backward. A lot of the parts that can service a ‘94 engine cannot be used to service the ‘89 - ‘91 engines.

My first exposure to service engineering was developing service plans, parts, and tools to service the HM282 FWD 5MT and the HM290 RWD 5MT. They were engineered by Getrag and built by GM in Muncie. To service the gearshafts I had to specify that dealers have on hand what amounts to a toaster oven, a dry ice chest, and a 20 ton gear press. That or they would have to replace an entire assembled gear shaft, just to replace synchronizers. And the case halves for the HM290 could not be separated because of a bearing race that was freeze-fit into the case, with a bearing that was select fit to the bearing race. Nightmare. If the bearing went bad, you had to replace the transmission. We eventually set up a remanufacturer so that out of warranty customers could have a lower cost alternative than buying a complete all new transmission.
 

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Actually then, Ferrari and/or McLaren came up with it first. But fact of the matter is, GM was working on it before GM knew that Ford was working on it. Hard to copy something you don’t know exists. GM knew the Ferrari and McLaren FPCs existed and acquired them before my team pointed out to them that GT350 was going to have FPC. The GM FPC is the answer to the Ferrari and McLaren FPCs.
I've heard this same thing said about the Camaro - that GM was working on it before Ford came up with the Mustang and that the Camaro wasn't released as a reaction to the Mustang and Ford's huge success with it. I must be a cynical and skeptical person, because I didn't believe the Camaro thing either.

The big deal in my opinion is a flat plane crank in a relatively affordable car that even a schlub like me could purchase - and something you could daily drive to work or use to pick up groceries. So I would say that Ford was first. Ferrari and McLaren don't really count as far as I'm concerned, because they are out of reach for most of us. And the Corvette with the FPC engine will probably something most people can't afford and most of them will sit in garages. I assume the FPC engine won't be available in a $60k Corvette.

I am looking forward to what GM does, though. Hopefully they set it up with twin throttle bodies and an even higher redline than the Voodoo.
 

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I am looking forward to what GM does, though. Hopefully they set it up with twin throttle bodies and an even higher redline than the Voodoo.
that'll be tough unless they go oversquare. 101x86mm (5512cc) to 8500RPM would do nicely if a bit nuts on piston speed. Question is can they do a better job of balancing the engine than Ford did and can they get the manufacturing right to support large production rates instead of crippling availability that 'hand-building them in a specialist environment' leads to. Unfortunately I doubt GM will elect to go with high RPM, keeping it around 7000 since long-stroke is what they do and the fuddy-duddies who buy these things in large numbers are too accustomed to 30 year old tech power delivery to tolerate deviating too far from it.
 

martinjlm

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I've heard this same thing said about the Camaro - that GM was working on it before Ford came up with the Mustang and that the Camaro wasn't released as a reaction to the Mustang and Ford's huge success with it. I must be a cynical and skeptical person, because I didn't believe the Camaro thing either.

The big deal in my opinion is a flat plane crank in a relatively affordable car that even a schlub like me could purchase - and something you could daily drive to work or use to pick up groceries. So I would say that Ford was first. Ferrari and McLaren don't really count as far as I'm concerned, because they are out of reach for most of us. And the Corvette with the FPC engine will probably something most people can't afford and most of them will sit in garages. I assume the FPC engine won't be available in a $60k Corvette.

I am looking forward to what GM does, though. Hopefully they set it up with twin throttle bodies and an even higher redline than the Voodoo.
There is no denying that in both cases, Mustang vs Camaro launch and affordable FPC launch, Ford got there first. It does not mean GM wasn't working on it before knowing what Ford was doing. It means they both got an idea at roughly the same time, but Ford got it to market first.

Mustang / Camaro:
GM was working hard to develop a small sporty car, different than anything else in the market. Something on the lines of a personal coupe like Corvette, but less pricey. Arguably, GM got there first, but their solution didn't stick. Corvair. The fact that Corvair existed helped shorten the development time for Camaro once GM realized Ford had arrived at a better formula.

FPC:
I have personal involvement in this one, so I will certainly be biased. Two things about the industry and technology developments that most people may not realize unless they are in the industry.
  1. A significant number of innovations come from Tier 1 suppliers like Bosch, Borg Warner, Continental, Denso, Delphi, and Visteon. When Delphi was part of GM and Visteon was part of Ford there was a lot more internal innovation, but since they were spun off, Delphi and Visteon go toe-to-toe with the other conglomerates I just mentioned. When the Tier 1s come up with an impactful new technology, they often allow the OEM that adopts it first to have some period of exclusivity then open it up to the rest of the industry. GM's Skip Fire Cylinder Deactivation is a prime example. Delphi will eventually sell that tech to other OEMs.
  2. All OEMs have Technology and Competitor Intel activities that closely monitor what Tier 1s and other OEMs are working on. Sometimes the Industry Intel and Competitor Intel are separate, sometimes they're integrated. My last 10 years at GM were spent leading an integrated Powertrain Tech and Competitor Intel group. We were the ones that told the team developing engines for C8 that Ford was working on an FPC. This was in 2013 or 2014. They acknowledged to us that they were already working on it themselves. So they were not working on it because Ford was working on it, they were working on it because it was the best solution to meet the targets they were given by the Corvette team. Ford got there first. But GM didn't copy Ford. They copied Ferrari and McLaren.
 

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its not copying GM had modern 4 cam 32v engine in 1990-1995 Know as the LT-5 in a ZR-1 that well before the coyote was even a thought be glad they didnt stick with it they would be 15 years more advanced by now ..
Lotus made that engine,not Garbage Motors:crackup::cwl:
 

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There were three incompatible versions of those engines between 1989 and 1995
Huh? The only major change was adding 4-bolt main caps in 1993. Other minor changes was to bump up horsepower. Hardly incompatible. BTW, Lotus Engineering designed the LT5 engine. Engineered in England but produced and assembled in Stillwater Oklahoma by Mercury Marine.
 

martinjlm

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Huh? The only major change was adding 4-bolt main caps in 1993. Other minor changes was to bump up horsepower. Hardly incompatible. BTW, Lotus Engineering designed the LT5 engine. Engineered in England but produced and assembled in Stillwater Oklahoma by Mercury Marine.
The 4-bolt main was the big change. What most people would not know, though is that in making those changes and the hp upgrades, the heads and crankshafts also changed. Head casting suppliers and crank forging suppliers changed. Can’t remember what year, but it was after ‘91. Most of the volume of ZR1 was in the ‘89 - ‘91 timeframe and the new cranks and heads were not backward compatible without changing a bunch of other parts. To top it off, a lot of the original ‘89 - ‘91 suppliers went out of business. I had to work with purchasing in the US and the UK to find a casting source for ‘89 - ‘91 vintage heads.

As far as being engineered by Lotus and built by Mercury Marine, I believe that I did say that this was the case. At the time Lotus was a wholly owned subsidiary of GM. That’s why they were on the engine design to begin with. I was very specifically assigned the tasks of developing a service plan for each design iteration of the engine and then for developing an end-of-production service plan for them when the ZR1 ended in 1995.

I was at Stillwater during the last week (though not the last day) of production to make certain the service engines I bought came off the line, got crated and shipped to be stored in a converted meat locker (excellent climate control) in an undisclosed location. They could only be accessed by dealers who could present a legitimate VIN code. There were also conversion kits set up so that an owner with an ‘89-91 or a ‘92-‘93 could use a ‘94-‘95 engine assembly if they chose to go the replacement route instead of a dealership repair. The VINs were required to identify which conversion kit was needed. I have more history with these engines than I sometimes care to remember. I’ve often referred to the ‘89 - ‘95 ZR1 as the best car that should have never been built.
 

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a lot of the original ‘89 - ‘91 suppliers went out of business
I thought everything was produced in-house at Mercury Marine, and only the electronics & fuel related parts were outsourced.
 

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I thought everything was produced in-house at Mercury Marine, and only the electronics & fuel related parts were outsourced.
Nope. MM made relatively few parts compared to a more typical engine plant. Most actually came in from the UK. At least the castings and forgings. Can’t remember if machining was done in UK or US for most parts. I think MM did assemble heads and they may have made the exhaust manifold and some other sheet metal parts like brackets and such. Some light machining.

Part of the reason they were involved at all is that they were a customer of GM engines to produce their own stern drive motors. They would take the GM 4.3L V6 or the 8.1L big block V8 and “marinize” them. They manufactured their own exhaust manifolds and some other parts and reassembled the engines for marine use. They had their own test cells to support that activity. But they were not manufacturing their own engines from block out. They were reconfiguring engines purchased from GM. Might still be doing that for all I know. I’ve been away from that side of the business for a long time.
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