S550 GT vs. The Car Group

[Chameleon]

I don't think it's a competition stock vs stock. The GT PP will walk all over the 335i on a road course.

Indeed.

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[mustang_guy]

I disagree with pretty much everything you said. You may be Master tech, I have owned various German, Swedish, Japanese, French, and American cars since 1983. I have also modified, built many engines and complete cars as a hobbyist over the past 28 years.

While Subaru's may be easy to work on (pulling an engine), I would'nt touch them. I know too many people that have popped their turbo engines (split crank case, no thanks). I also owned an Impreza, if you like thin carpeting, frameless doors, sewing machine sounding valve train and a warble exhaust note like it has a plug wire off - fine, whatever turns your crank, just don't tell me German cars are inferior. German cars can be a challenge because they tend to be overbuilt.

I personally believe that BMW's (for example) are worth the premium. Its because they don't use fake leather (they use THICK leather on the sides and back of the seats dude, not sure WTF you are talking about fake?), the quietness, composure, and details like drive-ability (shifting, throttle response, fuel economy), seating position, and long term comfort is what I like and have liked about BMW's for the past 20 years.

Yeah, german cars from 25 years ago are completely different then the stuff from the past 20. Subaru haven't done frameless doors for awhile now. Your opinion on Subaru is based off they aren't high end enough for you. Which of course they aren't they are cheaper cars. What do you expect? Executive refinement? I will tell you german cars are inferior, bmw for starters they don't use real leather, haven't for a LONG time. 50% of the parts are made in mexico or china. That carbon fiber, made in mexico, half of our transmissions are GM. Bmw cars have been being made with cheaper and cheaper quality. I NEVER had near the failure of parts that I do with Bmws. That's fine you don't like subarus, but they are far more reliable. You can live with that or chose to pretend that a current bmw master tech and being former master tech at Subaru didn't tell you so. You have an opinion and that's fine. But please don't post like its fact. I have zero problems when people post as opinion, but when opinion is passed off as facts is where I have to say stuff. German quality is an oxymoron now. Its not like it was back in the e30s. E36 was the start of bwms decline. I wouldn't put anyones mother in a German car. You keep thinking what you want to think. Ill keep posting my facts. :shrug:

I gotta say I got a kick out of your post so much I shared it with a couple of techs I work with. Funniest shit they've heard all day. Im sure youre a very nice person, please don't misunderstand and add tone to text. But you are VERY misinformed on what German cars are today. Im sure youll have some long rebuttal on why you feel im wrong. You don't need to post it. It wont change what I see every day that shows me you're wrong.

*edit* id like to make it known I do not HATE bmw incase you think that I do. I love e30 m3's and 2002's

 

[Shawnski]

Yeah, german cars from 25 years ago are completely different then the stuff from the past 20. Subaru haven't done frameless doors for awhile now. Your opinion on Subaru is based off they aren't high end enough for you. Which of course they aren't they are cheaper cars. What do you expect? Executive refinement? I will tell you german cars are inferior, bmw for starters they don't use real leather, haven't for a LONG time. 50% of the parts are made in mexico or china. That carbon fiber, made in mexico, half of our transmissions are GM. Bmw cars have been being made with cheaper and cheaper quality. I NEVER had near the failure of parts that I do with Bmws. That's fine you don't like subarus, but they are far more reliable. You can live with that or chose to pretend that a current bmw master tech and being former master tech at Subaru didn't tell you so. You have an opinion and that's fine. But please don't post like its fact. I have zero problems when people post as opinion, but when opinion is passed off as facts is where I have to say stuff. German quality is an oxymoron now. Its not like it was back in the e30s. E36 was the start of bwms decline. I wouldn't put anyones mother in a German car. You keep thinking what you want to think. Ill keep posting my facts. :shrug:

I gotta say I got a kick out of your post so much I shared it with a couple of techs I work with. Funniest shit they've heard all day. Im sure youre a very nice person, please don't misunderstand and add tone to text. But you are VERY misinformed on what German cars are today. Im sure youll have some long rebuttal on why you feel im wrong. You don't need to post it. It wont change what I see every day that shows me you're wrong.

*edit* id like to make it known I do not HATE bmw incase you think that I do. I love e30 m3's and 2002's

Just because you can't put a value on something you see as too expensive to put in your budget doesn’t mean its not for someone else. German cars are worth it, and no amount of your bashing (outsourcing is part of the biz) will make me change my opinion which is based on my experience. While I would not buy a new BMW (never have), I have had great experience with certified pre-owned, which gives a lot more car IMO than a Acura for example. Sorry, Japanese cars just don't do anything for me (Except for '82-'86 Supra and '90-'93 TT 300ZX), but I digress.

You stated that E36, (and presumably) 46, 82, 90 are not better than an E30 well I don't agree. I have owned all except the 36 and 46, also owned an E34. We nursed my HS kids geriatric E30 along for 5 years (thank God for the Bentley repair book). I know that they all have their strengths and weaknesses (like every car). Every succeeding 3 series has gotten better from a dynamic and comfort level. You may lament because you had to work on the stuff, but because it’s harder to work on than a Subaru - it sucks?

The cool thing about BMW is that shared knowledge is keen on troubleshooting, and parts are not really any more $$ than other cars once you get over that 10 year hump since they are desirable, people tend to keep them on the road so there is allot of competitive sources for said parts.

Does the 2015 Ford Mustang suck because of all that crazy complication and technology (that will break at some point) compared to a stone simple Fox body? I guess it depends on what you want, a DD or easy to build race car.

 

[mustang_guy]

Just because you can't put a value on something you see as too expensive to put in your budget doesn’t mean its not for someone else. German cars are worth it, and no amount of your ridicule will make me change my opinion which is based on my experience.

You stated that E36, (and presumably) 46, 82, 90 are not better than an E30 well I don't agree. I have owned all except the 36 and 46, also an E34. I know that they all have there strengths and weaknesses (like every car). Every 3 series has gotten better from a dynamic and comfort level. You may lament because you had to work on the stuff, but because it’s harder to work on than a Subaru - it sucks? The cool thing about BMW is that parts are not really any more $$ than other cars once you get over that 10 year hump since they are desirable, people tend to keep them on the road so there is allot of competitive sources for said parts.

Does the 2015 Ford Mustang suck because of all that crazy complication and technology (that will break at some point) compared to a stone simple Fox body? I guess it depends on what you want, a DD or easy an easy to build race car.

I didn't even bring up the cost of fixing it yet. I brought up they are UNRELIABLE, which they are. That isn't opinion, its fact. Im not looking to change your mind. Im looking for you to stop trying to tell me how bmws are and aren't. Im not looking for you to agree. Im telling you how it is. I never said our cars are hard to work on, that isn't what make our cars suck. They are unreliable, that's what makes them shit boxes. OE parts from the dealer, providing its still available for the older bmws (e36 and older), is just as expensive as the day it was new. I had someone in getting work done on his rare to see old bmw, it also needed a driveshaft for his 89 328I vert, not only was it STILL 1100 bucks, it was Germany only which is 35-45 days without paying a freight charge to get in in 10-14 days. IF it isn't back ordered. There is also a 10% charge on top of the item being rush ordered. He said the car isn't worth it and said he was going to sell it to a junkyard. You think people keep them on the road, the majority of people sell them to junkyards because OE parts are over priced and hard to come by at the dealer. I hardly see anything older then a e36, even those I don't see many of on the road anymore. People don't keep them, I see far more old Mercedes on the road then any other old euro car. The 2015 gt is far from complicated if you ask me. Its pretty easy to build a drag car in any generation mustang. Ive done it in a 93 cobra, 98 cobra, 04 cobra and gt500. Ill be doing it soon in a 2016 gt. You prefer bmws, I get it.

 

[ihc95]

I didn't even bring up the cost of fixing it yet. I brought up they are UNRELIABLE, which they are. That isn't opinion, its fact. Im not looking to change your mind. Im looking for you to stop trying to tell me how bmws are and aren't. Im not looking for you to agree. Im telling you how it is. I never said our cars are hard to work on, that isn't what make our cars suck. They are unreliable, that's what makes them shit boxes. OE parts from the dealer, providing its still available for the older bmws (e36 and older), is just as expensive as the day it was new. I had someone in getting work done on his rare to see old bmw, it also needed a driveshaft for his 89 328I vert, not only was it STILL 1100 bucks, it was Germany only which is 35-45 days without paying a freight charge to get in in 10-14 days. IF it isn't back ordered. There is also a 10% charge on top of the item being rush ordered. He said the car isn't worth it and said he was going to sell it to a junkyard. You think people keep them on the road, the majority of people sell them to junkyards because OE parts are over priced and hard to come by at the dealer. I hardly see anything older then a e36, even those I don't see many of on the road anymore. People don't keep them, I see far more old Mercedes on the road then any other old euro car. The 2015 gt is far from complicated if you ask me. Its pretty easy to build a drag car in any generation mustang. Ive done it in a 93 cobra, 98 cobra, 04 cobra and gt500. Ill be doing it soon in a 2016 gt. You prefer bmws, I get it.

I just find it interesting that you care so much about reliability and if a car is unreliable, you call it "trash." So if someone buys a brand new M3, keeps it for 3-4 years with no problems and enjoys the shit out of it, the car is still trash? No matter how much you claim the quality is poor, does that really matter to most guys? I guess if you keep your car 8-10 years, but that isn't the norm these days.

 

[mustang_guy]

I just find it interesting that you care so much about reliability and if a car is unreliable, you call it "trash." So if someone buys a brand new M3, keeps it for 3-4 years with no problems and enjoys the shit out of it, the car is still trash? No matter how much you claim the quality is poor, does that really matter to most guys? I guess if you keep your car 8-10 years, but that isn't the norm these days.

Ill explain why I feel the way I feel for you. I constantly have tons of people towed in daily (our parking lot is packed full of towed in) that were left on the side of the road, a lot of them moms stuck on the side of the road in the heat or cold without a running car, with a baby or young child. To me when I see it as much as I do its completely unacceptable. Our quality control is horrible. Bmw needs to stop being cheap with who they source the OE supplier contracts to. Bmw is trying to save tons of money and in return they are turning out what looks like quality, but its a turd in a pretty package. Sure a lot of our interior materials are nice but the electronics behind it are low budget quality. Our wood trim panels all turn cloudy eventually. Each interior wood trim package has to be replaced as a set only because they use real wood behind it so to keep the grain matching you are only allowed to buy a SET. Which is usually 3-5g. They need to be putting a QUALITY clear coat over that wood. That's ridiculous. A lot of our customers don't know how the quality will actually be. Most people you ask will think its great quality based off the name of Bmw. That's whats selling these cars still. Their old reputation from the 80s and very early 90s, well that and people think bmw means status. A lot of our owners will down play how unreliable the cars been for the sake of "quality". Since when does quality break down multiple times a year?

As for the m cars, they are just as unreliable generally. Just a lot more expensive. Its rather uncommon that a bmw doesn't have any issues in 3-4yrs. Its by far a minority, not a majority. Hell our sales manager m4 has been in 6 times since he bought it. Its only 4 months old. It'll probably be in another 15 times before he reaches the 4th year. One of the salesmens has an f80 m3 has been in multiple times this year as well none of it was regular maintenance. Also every employee ive asked if they would buy another bmw if they didn't work here, they said hell no. They only do it because they get discounted labor rates of 25hr vs 150hr. Also 10% over cost on parts. We have more work then techs(we have 25 techs btw). At the moment we are booked almost 3wks out for people requesting regular maintenance. We only squeeze in emergencies until caught up. That's how bad it is.

 

[ihc95]

Ill explain why I feel the way I feel for you. I constantly have tons of people towed in daily, that were left on the side of the road, a lot of them moms stuck on the side of the road in the heat or cold without a running car, with a baby or young child. To me when I see it as much as I do its completely unacceptable. Our quality control is horrible. Bmw needs to stop being cheap with who they source the OE supplier contracts to. Bmw is trying to save tons of money and in return they are turning out what looks like quality, but its a turd in a pretty package. Sure a lot of our interior materials are nice but the electronics behind it are low budget quality. Our wood trim panels all turn cloudy eventually. Each interior wood trim package has to be replaced as a set only because they use real wood behind it so to keep the grain matching you are only allowed to buy a SET. Which is usually 3-5g. They need to be putting a QUALITY clear coat over that wood. That's ridiculous. A lot of our customers don't know how the quality will actually be. Most people you ask will think its great quality based off the name of Bmw. That's whats selling these cars still. Their old reputation from the 80s and very early 90s. A lot of our owners will down play how unreliable the cars been for the sake of "quality". Since when does quality break down multiple times a year?

As for the m cars, they are just as unreliable generally. Just a lot more expensive. Its rather uncommon that a bmw doesn't have any issues in 3-4yrs. Its by far a minority, not a majority. Hell our sales manager m4 has been in 6 times since he bought it. Its only 4 months old. It'll probably be in another 15 times before he reaches the 4th year. One of the salesmens has an f80 m3 has been in multiple times this year as well none of it was regular maintenance. Also every employee ive asked if they would buy another bmw if they didn't work here, they said hell no. They only do it because they get discounted labor rates of 25hr vs 150hr. Also 10% over cost on parts.

Fair explaination. Having mothers with young children being towed in everyday may be overdoing it, but I get your point.

 

[mustang_guy]

Fair explaination. Having mothers with young children being towed in everyday may be overdoing it, but I get your point.

Its not an exaggeration. Its hardly over done to me. :shrug:

 

[Shawnski]

Its not an exaggeration. Its hardly over done to me. :shrug:

I will let you know how my 135 N55 DCT does (if I keep it long term), no problems so far but it only has 20k mi. In the meantime I will enjoy the smooth power, quick shifting tranny, comfort and FE.

I frequent the www.1addicts.com/forums and the biggest issue with these cars is the HPFP fuel pump, and that primarily affects early N54 motors.

 

[nsquared]

Not to bring this thread from the dead but here is another scenario w/ the same cars.

GT PP w/ Conti DW Extreme Contacts w/ eibach pro kit and sway bars vs. M235i w/ LSD, six-speed with Mich Super Sports - On a autocross track and just straight line speed.

Even with about a 200 pound difference in weight, confident the GT can take it?

 

[mustang_guy]

Not to bring this thread from the dead but here is another scenario w/ the same cars.

GT PP w/ Conti DW Extreme Contacts w/ eibach pro kit and sway bars vs. M235i w/ LSD, six-speed with Mich Super Sports - On a autocross track and just straight line speed.

Even with about a 200 pound difference in weight, confident the GT can take it?

The the gt pp is a faster car in every measure. Whether you can make it take the other car that will be the deciding factor.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

I like finding out what's faster than me the old fashion way.;)

 

[DarkSubRosa]

The real question is why are you so concerned about beating a specific car? If you want to know if your car is faster, line them up. If it's not, put more parts on it.

 

[nsquared]

The real question is why are you so concerned about beating a specific car? If you want to know if your car is faster, line them up. If it's not, put more parts on it.

Haha obsessed.

 

[Sub-Moa]

I always find it funny when a slower car with a better driver beats the better car with the worse driver. That is the biggest blow you can hand someone on the road. I knew this guy who got his butt handed to him and he took his car to the dealership insisting there was something wrong with his car. Only thing that was wrong was him. I ordered a new mustang knowing it won't be as fast as the Camaro because that is what I like. I feel more confident behind a mustang steering wheel than a Camaro. Everyone has their preferences. Same as the BMW but the difference here is you have to be willing to pay the piper if you keep the car out of warranty. Ford is much cheaper in that regard.

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