GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

Which is why the statement "the LS7 has more CI's and thus not fair" is hilarious.

It's not that it's not fair, it's laziness, stubbornness, ignorance and inefficiency. Now, manufacturers no longer need to cook their brains on if they should use a 16 gallon tank OEM or a 19. When the gas chugging LS7 arrived, they allowed them an additional 2 gallon allowance. Now the GT350 is allowed a 5 gallon allowance...

If the class evolves into a Factory Pre-GT class like PWC's GTS then fine. Don't come pumping your fist in here when a heavyweight was placed into a middleweight class and dominates (somewhat)...

...and don't take offense when the Mustang is allowed to play the same game. I wish the GT350 only had an 80mm restrictor to start, Stevenson wouldn't see the tail lights at all... not from what I witnessed last Sunday...



The z28 is outmatched and outclassed...

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[DiMaio90]

Is the ls7 really that inefficient(difference between fuel economy and actual efficiency of an engine-hp/l does not equate to efficiency)? It was allowed a 2 gallon increase, and the gt350 is getting a 5 gallon increase? Does the gt350 come stock with a smaller gas tank compared to other vehicles in the class?

Seems to me that no car should be dominant in any class. That's why restrictions are placed on cars in the first place, to level the playing field. Otherwise it should just be cars compete as they are built from the factory. I don't really follow class racing but would like to start? Any tips for the best place to start?

 

[thePill]

Is the ls7 really that inefficient(difference between fuel economy and actual efficiency of an engine-hp/l does not equate to efficiency)? It was allowed a 2 gallon increase, and the gt350 is getting a 5 gallon increase? Does the gt350 come stock with a smaller gas tank compared to other vehicles in the class?

Seems to me that no car should be dominant in any class. That's why restrictions are placed on cars in the first place, to level the playing field. Otherwise it should just be cars compete as they are built from the factory. I don't really follow class racing but would like to start? Any tips for the best place to start?

Wouldon't need restrictions if a standard is established and left up to the manufacturer to compete, as well as teams and drivers.

In person, I would attend as many races as you can in person. The SCCA's A through F classes are probably the most down to Earth.


The only good thing about the LS7 is the material and internal design. In reality, it's just another LS V8 and is only special because of its successful attempts to out power the 6.2. Did it do it with efficiency? Some lightweighting was involved but, it's still a 427 that ONLY makes 500hp. OHV's suffer from parasitic losses of all sorts, valve shrouding, pushrods, limited valve diameter and flow, DI packaging due to pushrods, valve float/poor rocker control, poor atomization vs. DOHC... you just can't make DOHC power in an OHV. You also can't make OHV torque in a DOHC either. But, in road racing, a body in motion actually requires far less torque.

A 7 liter DOHC (while amazing) could produce 600-630hp NA without DI and out-rev the LS7.

However, it's fuel efficiency would be terrible, even with TiVCT.

 

[Trackaholic]

I'm confused by the arguments here.

I see some complaining that the Z/28 sucks, yet at the same time complaining that it is ruining the class by being too good and therefore causing other MFR's to leave the series.

Then I see the GT350 come in and look very strong.

I also see that many of the other cars are now old, and no longer the standard of that MFR (BMW and Porsche for example no longer make the e92 or 997).

It seems obvious that these types of series will be continuously fighting to keep the cars relatively equal, in order to promote good racing. Therefore, there will always be one car that has an advantage, until that advantage is removed by additional restriction. It sounds like the Z/28 came in with minimal restriction, ran very well, and is now being toned down to be more on par with the other cars. The same will happen with the GT350.

Complaining about specific restrictions makes no sense when you are trying to balance the performance of a car based on a $50,000 Mustang with one based on a $75,000 Camaro or M3, with another based on a $120,000 911. Of course the restrictions will wildly vary from car to car in the hopes of creating relatively equal performance.

I guess I don't quite understand what the big deal is here. If you want to see multiple types of cars racing closely against each other, you need to accept the idea of balancing the performance.

-T

 

[Trackaholic]

Wouldon't need restrictions if a standard is established and left up to the manufacturer to compete, as well as teams and drivers.

Isn't that what Formula racing is all about? At that point you are no longer racing a Mustang against a 911 or 370Z, you are racing Ford's Formula CTSCC against Chevy's and Porsche's. None of them will be street legal and all will be much more expensive.

Maybe I'm missing what you mean by "a standard is established and left up to the MFRs to compete". To me that sounds like "here are the rules, make a car that matches them" which is not what this type of series is intended to be (at least IMO).

My understanding for these series is more like, "OK, you wish to enter our series with this car, here are preliminary performance targets you must match, then let's see how the car does and adjust as required to keep you in the middle of the pack".

-T

 

[madweazl]

Wouldon't need restrictions if a standard is established and left up to the manufacturer to compete, as well as teams and drivers.

In person, I would attend as many races as you can in person. The SCCA's A through F classes are probably the most down to Earth.


The only good thing about the LS7 is the material and internal design. In reality, it's just another LS V8 and is only special because of its successful attempts to out power the 6.2. Did it do it with efficiency? Some lightweighting was involved but, it's still a 427 that ONLY makes 500hp. OHV's suffer from parasitic losses of all sorts, valve shrouding, pushrods, limited valve diameter and flow, DI packaging due to pushrods, valve float/poor rocker control, poor atomization vs. DOHC... you just can't make DOHC power in an OHV. You also can't make OHV torque in a DOHC either. But, in road racing, a body in motion actually requires far less torque.

A 7 liter DOHC (while amazing) could produce 600-630hp NA without DI and out-rev the LS7.

However, it's fuel efficiency would be terrible, even with TiVCT.

The LS7 breaks 500hp so easily; it's actually tough to keep it at/under 500. Much broader torque curve, revs quite well still, and is relatively inexpensive.

While SCCA has all kinds of regulations to balance the myriad manufacturers that comprise the classes, the real world Z/28 mops the floor with the current offering from Ford on the streets. While I have little doubt the GT350 will out perform the current Z, I'll be quite surprised if that is the case for the '16 Z. Hopefully this pushes the GT350 numbers and performance up for '17. It is an amazing time to be a car guy, that is for sure.

 

[thePill]

Isn't that what Formula racing is all about? At that point you are no longer racing a Mustang against a 911 or 370Z, you are racing Ford's Formula CTSCC against Chevy's and Porsche's. None of them will be street legal and all will be much more expensive.

Maybe I'm missing what you mean by "a standard is established and left up to the MFRs to compete". To me that sounds like "here are the rules, make a car that matches them" which is not what this type of series is intended to be (at least IMO).

My understanding for these series is more like, "OK, you wish to enter our series with this car, here are preliminary performance targets you must match, then let's see how the car does and adjust as required to keep you in the middle of the pack".

-T

Formula racing yes, Factory racing no...

The last hope of factory racing died January 2014.

As of right now, the class is limitless to some degree. It bothers me that a manufacturer would skip Motorsport homologation, consider itself direct competition for an already classed Boss 302 on the OEM side and still be permitted both major leeway or major changes.

There was no equipment limitations for the z28 stock, they had no Rulebook dictating the performance ceiling. Then, was permitted to contend with these vehicles as equals.

Not that it matters, Chevy didn't develop or sanction the z28 anyway, it was a Pratt and Miller endeavor. Chevy has very little to do with CTSC development yet are prepared to market the hell out of a win as if they accomplished something great.

It's no different in GTS, they were allowed a lot of BS changes and waivers for some reason. As of right now, honest to god GT cars are running in CTSC GS... this is why everyone else will not be returning next season. No M4, no 991, no Vantage/DB9, and maybe no NISMO. This class was pretty well established before the z28 came along. Now nobody is racing anymore...

 

[68fbjjz109]

On another note, I think the Z28 and GT350 have firmly established two things.

1. The consideration that American cars can't handle is mostly certainly dead.

2. The world should never doubt American manufacturing capability, coupled with goals.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

On another note, I think the Z28 and GT350 have firmly established two things.

1. The consideration that American cars can't handle is mostly certainly dead.

2. The world should never doubt American manufacturing capability, coupled with goals.

:cheers::ford:

 

[Erik427]

On another note, I think the Z28 and GT350 have firmly established two things.

1. The consideration that American cars can't handle is mostly certainly dead.

2. The world should never doubt American manufacturing capability, coupled with goals.

Quoted for Truth

 

[thePill]

How fast is the highly restricted GT350R? Right now, it uses a 58mm restrictor at 3350lbs. Both GT350R's swept the front row at Mosport last weekend. They both were blistering fast...

Last year, when CTSC returned to Mosport, the z28's did well. Stevenson took the pole and 3rd. Here was the exact state of the z28 throughout the remaining 2014 season. These changes were made in March 2014 and remained until the offseason.

Here is the pole results from the z28 last year as well as the M3 in 2nd and Matt Bells z28 in 3rd.

Keep in mind, these are 3400lbs z28's, with roughly a 60-100RWHP advantage.


How did the twin snakes do this year???

Where the snakes at now...

Rum Bums time was amazing, that is if the GT350 didn't exist...


In my opinion, the z28 with an 80mm restrictor at 3400lbs is waaaaaaaaaaaaay slower than a GT350 with a 58mm restrictor at 3350lbs.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay slower....

 

[BluByeU]

The LS7 breaks 500hp so easily; it's actually tough to keep it at/under 500. Much broader torque curve, revs quite well still, and is relatively inexpensive.

While SCCA has all kinds of regulations to balance the myriad manufacturers that comprise the classes, the real world Z/28 mops the floor with the current offering from Ford on the streets. While I have little doubt the GT350 will out perform the current Z, I'll be quite surprised if that is the case for the '16 Z. Hopefully this pushes the GT350 numbers and performance up for '17. It is an amazing time to be a car guy, that is for sure.

My exact sentiments! Viper, Hellcat, Z/28, GT350, GTR, Vette, GTPP, ZL1, M3/4, etc. Sometimes I think/feel like I'm re-living my childhood as it relates to fast/quick streetcars. Just happy as hell that I'm able to be a part of it :clap2:

 

[BluByeU]

On another note, I think the Z28 and GT350 have firmly established two things.

1. The consideration that American cars can't handle is mostly certainly dead.

2. The world should never doubt American manufacturing capability, coupled with goals.

Spot-on! Click on (((ANY))) youtube video that has a domestic vs.German-made, Italian-made...if the domestic wins, one of the very post will read something like this "stupid Americans are only concerned with straight-line performance" OR "it can't corner for $hit!"
But now we have a litany of American performance cars that haul the mail from A to B and will corner with the BMW/GTR brand. :hail:

 

[nametoshowothers]

On another note, I think the Z28 and GT350 have firmly established two things.



1. The consideration that American cars can't handle is mostly certainly dead.



2. The world should never doubt American manufacturing capability, coupled with goals.

Well american and canadian engineers have been know to design very good stuff. But the accounting departments have long ruled and as a result performance has not been consistently up to par at certain times yes

I heard in the 80s a senior ford engineer talk very highly about how the Japanese have change the importance of engineering for the better. The most important thing is that it appears ford is really on a performance engineering roll and appears to be consistently going forward. I would say gm as well but they are having to many failures to say it has made the in roads it needs to. No doubt gm engineers can build world class machines but they keep stumbling




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[Shawnski]

LS7 vs. 5.2 FPC

The key difference between the Coyote and LS3 for example has to do with the power-band. The power-band is the RPM range between a given motors TQ peak and HP peak. Urban legend will tell you that an LS3 is a bigger displacement motor with more grunt, and a 5.0 Coyote is all about making power at higher RPM. The truth is the reason a 5.0 and 6.2 generate about the same forward thrust is due to the smaller motor makes power "under the curve" i.e it rides a power-band longer. If memory serves me, I believe the Coyote has an additional 700 RPM to work with once it hits its TQ peak and before it settles into its HP peak.

The attached grids are especially startling comparing the Z28 and GT350 engines. The LS7 generates a 1500-1800 RPM powerband, while the 5.2 Voodoo has an incredible 4000 PRM powerband! Having a flexible powerband is a roadracer's friend since the engine is very linear in its power output.

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