GT350 vs. F82 M4

[Sasuketr]

As a price performance point m4 will fall way behind the mustang and camaro! I m not even including the gt350 or corvette!

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[socalsnake]

I don't know what are you guys talking about but if a regular GTPP can keep up with the m3 and m4, then a 500+ hp version with better handling will demolish it! Seriously guys:doh:

Ummmmm....not true, really.

Although, I do like my GT PP, the F82 Ms are faster on straights or on curves. The GT350 will be a great comparison to it...don't know if it will "demolish" it though.

BMW did underrate the M4 a pretty good amount. Stock dyno, mine read 443 whp / 452 tq on a dynojet.

 

[socalsnake]

As a price performance point m4 will fall way behind the mustang and camaro! I m not even including the gt350 or corvette!

This is a good point. M's cost of entry is not good...but one thing to consider as well is the ease of modability of these cars (obviously ture with turbo cars in general).

Tune and downpipe with an F82 M3/M4 and you've gone from 430 rwhp / 440 tq to 510-520 rwhp / 520-530 tq depending on gas 91 or 93...cost of this is about 2000.00 to 2400.00 depending on which products you choose. Thats decent bang for the buck. In other words, you go from trapping 118-119 mph in the quarter to trapping 122-123 mph.

With all that being said, I would consider a gt350 to replace my M4 :ford:

 

[OppoLock]

This is a good point. M's cost of entry is not good...but one thing to consider as well is the ease of modability of these cars (obviously ture with turbo cars in general).

Tune and downpipe with an F82 M3/M4 and you've gone from 430 rwhp / 440 tq to 510-520 rwhp / 520-530 tq depending on gas 91 or 93...cost of this is about 2000.00 to 2400.00 depending on which products you choose. Thats decent bang for the buck. In other words, you go from trapping 118-119 mph in the quarter to trapping 122-123 mph.

With all that being said, I would consider a gt350 to replace my M4 :ford:

I would love to hear your thoughts on the individual aspects of these cars! Mind commenting on the steering (weighting, loading, accuracy, feedback), brakes, suspension (body roll, compliance) and overall fun-to-drive factors?

 

[socalsnake]

I would love to hear your thoughts on the individual aspects of these cars! Mind commenting on the steering (weighting, loading, accuracy, feedback), brakes, suspension (body roll, compliance) and overall fun-to-drive factors?

Sure...

Would like to preface that my comments in no way diminish the great qualities of the S550 5.0 PP. I think the S550 is a fantastic car (that's why I bought one!), but it is a little unfair comparing it to an M4 as I believe the GT350 will be the more fair comparison to the M4.

For what I use my S550 for (DD duty...comfort and speed), it is perfect and for what I use my M for (canyon carving and having a little "fun" against friends' 911s and AMGs), it is perfect.

Stock to Stock M4 vs S550 GT PP 5.0 (M4 has been modded since November so I'm trying to remember as best I can here...):

Steering - The M4 (like the GT) has moved to electric power steering.
Weight - The M4's steering weight can be adjusted from comfort to sport
to sport+. I prefer sport most of the time as sport+ is very heavy
almost too heavy even for track duty. The weighting is subjective -
pick the mode you like.
Loading and accuracy - The M4's accuracy is superb. It is simply fantastic.
It is Porsche-like maybe a tiny bit less. The Camaro ZL1 I have driven
had great steering accuracy, but the feels a step above that. Point and
shoot, it reacts instantly. The steering loads evenly from apex to apex
through the curves. The transitional feel is very controllable. Steering
angle to steering angle can be controlled without drama.
Feedback - Feedback is good, but a step below Porsche and a step below
the ZL1. I think its just the nature of EPS. It is in no way numb...just
buffered. This is more of an EPS vs hydraulic steering issue I think.
Without bashing the S550, the M4's steering is vastly superior (but
take as many other factors play into this such as the weight of each car,
the weight distribution etc...)

Brakes - I do not have the ceramic brakes on my M4. I have the traditional
steel 4 pot 380 mm front / 2 pot 370 mm rear brakes. Before they were
bedded in, the brakes were a bit touchy, but they have now become easy
to modulate...predictably more progressive. They can stop on the
proverbial dime.
The S550's brakes from day one are superb. They are not touchy and have
been easy to modulate. Brake feel is excellent. I'd venture to say they
are among the best OEM brakes I've felt on a mustang (including the
Cobra R, Boss).

Suspension - I do not have the adaptive suspension on my M4. I have
traditional coils and dampers. Suspension compliance is excellent. It is
not jarring or rough at all. It is well dampened for the street and the track.
It is not a go-kart like Cayman type suspension, but it wasn't meant to be.
All stock 911's I've driven or been in have ridden more rough and less
compliant than either the adaptive or coil/spring equipped F82 Ms. I'd
venture to say it is the perfect mix of track capability and street capability.
Body roll is minimal and it loads and unloads from corner to corner without
drama.
The S550's suspension is superb for a mustang. Compared to all other
of my previous mustangs, it is night and day. It is obviously because of the
newly designed independent suspension...even much much better than the
Frankenstein independent suspension of my 03/04 Cobra. But, the S550
is a little floaty...maybe underdampened if you're used to M3/M4 and
Cayman like suspensions. The S550 suspension is very good, but still
a step behind the F82 platform.

Miscellaneous / Fun to Drive Comments - The M4 has been modded so this
may sound more biased towards the M. Is it more fun to drive?...I won't
say for sure because that is very subjective. Like I said above, the M
checks off all my requirements and expectations when I acquired it - easily
modified for a reasonable cost, some luxury and cache, puts up a good
fight with my friends' 911s, R8s, AMGs. It is a superbly handling, non-
dedicated to the track vehicle (i.e. it is neither a dedicated sports car nor a
dedicated track, but a very capable sports - track - street car)

The S550 hasn't been modded, but I've already ordered a ton of bolt-ons
for it and it will go under the knife this weekend. Will it be more fun to
drive? Again, an unanswerable question because it is subjective. Like the
M, it seems to satisfy all my expectations - excellent DD...comfortable,
decent speed, great infotainment, great lookin', lots of mods available
already. And being a Mustang guy at heart, it satisfies my thirst for
muscle.

Sorry this is so long...so wrapping this up...although the M4 and the S550
GT PP 5.0 I have are meant for different purposed (for me), they have one
thing in common that make them so great and so alike...
They are multi-purpose tools and great at it being a jack of all trades

The Mustang has evolved - it was a muscle car now with ambitions to
become a true grand touring car with sports car abilities while retaining
its muscle car roots and spirit.

The M4 has also evolved as well - it was at it roots an N/A track car now a twin turbo with ambitions to
become a jack of all trades...a poor man's everyday super car - track
capable, good straight line potential, some cache and luxury.

To me they're both awesome...

Now just gotta find a way to park a 911 Turbo S and a GT350 in my
garage

 

[OppoLock]

Sure...

Would like to preface that my comments in no way diminish the great qualities of the S550 5.0 PP. I think the S550 is a fantastic car (that's why I bought one!), but it is a little unfair comparing it to an M4 as I believe the GT350 will be the more fair comparison to the M4.

For what I use my S550 for (DD duty...comfort and speed), it is perfect and for what I use my M for (canyon carving and having a little "fun" against friends' 911s and AMGs), it is perfect.

Stock to Stock M4 vs S550 GT PP 5.0 (M4 has been modded since November so I'm trying to remember as best I can here...):

Steering - The M4 (like the GT) has moved to electric power steering.
Weight - The M4's steering weight can be adjusted from comfort to sport
to sport+. I prefer sport most of the time as sport+ is very heavy
almost too heavy even for track duty. The weighting is subjective -
pick the mode you like.
Loading and accuracy - The M4's accuracy is superb. It is simply fantastic.
It is Porsche-like maybe a tiny bit less. The Camaro ZL1 I have driven
had great steering accuracy, but the feels a step above that. Point and
shoot, it reacts instantly. The steering loads evenly from apex to apex
through the curves. The transitional feel is very controllable. Steering
angle to steering angle can be controlled without drama.
Feedback - Feedback is good, but a step below Porsche and a step below
the ZL1. I think its just the nature of EPS. It is in no way numb...just
buffered. This is more of an EPS vs hydraulic steering issue I think.
Without bashing the S550, the M4's steering is vastly superior (but
take as many other factors play into this such as the weight of each car,
the weight distribution etc...)

Brakes - I do not have the ceramic brakes on my M4. I have the traditional
steel 4 pot 380 mm front / 2 pot 370 mm rear brakes. Before they were
bedded in, the brakes were a bit touchy, but they have now become easy
to modulate...predictably more progressive. They can stop on the
proverbial dime.
The S550's brakes from day one are superb. They are not touchy and have
been easy to modulate. Brake feel is excellent. I'd venture to say they
are among the best OEM brakes I've felt on a mustang (including the
Cobra R, Boss).

Suspension - I do not have the adaptive suspension on my M4. I have
traditional coils and dampers. Suspension compliance is excellent. It is
not jarring or rough at all. It is well dampened for the street and the track.
It is not a go-kart like Cayman type suspension, but it wasn't meant to be.
All stock 911's I've driven or been in have ridden more rough and less
compliant than either the adaptive or coil/spring equipped F82 Ms. I'd
venture to say it is the perfect mix of track capability and street capability.
Body roll is minimal and it loads and unloads from corner to corner without
drama.
The S550's suspension is superb for a mustang. Compared to all other
of my previous mustangs, it is night and day. It is obviously because of the
newly designed independent suspension...even much much better than the
Frankenstein independent suspension of my 03/04 Cobra. But, the S550
is a little floaty...maybe underdampened if you're used to M3/M4 and
Cayman like suspensions. The S550 suspension is very good, but still
a step behind the F82 platform.

Miscellaneous / Fun to Drive Comments - The M4 has been modded so this
may sound more biased towards the M. Is it more fun to drive?...I won't
say for sure because that is very subjective. Like I said above, the M
checks off all my requirements and expectations when I acquired it - easily
modified for a reasonable cost, some luxury and cache, puts up a good
fight with my friends' 911s, R8s, AMGs. It is a superbly handling, non-
dedicated to the track vehicle (i.e. it is neither a dedicated sports car nor a
dedicated track, but a very capable sports - track - street car)

The S550 hasn't been modded, but I've already ordered a ton of bolt-ons
for it and it will go under the knife this weekend. Will it be more fun to
drive? Again, an unanswerable question because it is subjective. Like the
M, it seems to satisfy all my expectations - excellent DD...comfortable,
decent speed, great infotainment, great lookin', lots of mods available
already. And being a Mustang guy at heart, it satisfies my thirst for
muscle.

Sorry this is so long...so wrapping this up...although the M4 and the S550
GT PP 5.0 I have are meant for different purposed (for me), they have one
thing in common that make them so great and so alike...
They are multi-purpose tools and great at it being a jack of all trades

The Mustang has evolved - it was a muscle car now with ambitions to
become a true grand touring car with sports car abilities while retaining
its muscle car roots and spirit.

The M4 has also evolved as well - it was at it roots an N/A track car now a twin turbo with ambitions to
become a jack of all trades...a poor man's everyday super car - track
capable, good straight line potential, some cache and luxury.

To me they're both awesome...

Now just gotta find a way to park a 911 Turbo S and a GT350 in my
garage

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to get back with all of this! I've got a foot in both camps; a long time (waning) BMW fan at heart that just bought my first Mustang. The F8X twins and the M235i are the only cars with a roundel that I've got any kind of love left for.

Your comments are what I was expecting. I'd love to get a chance to see how the M4's rack stacks up against the S550's. My GT's steering is a bit of a weak spot for me. Gets the job done and is above par, but it's not what I'd call natural or quick. It does feel underdamped, too.

How do you feel about the torque delivery on your M4? It gets a lot of criticism about having issues putting it down to the ground. Then again, most of these comments stem from track day critique and I'd be interested to know how that interferes with you 6-8/10ths driving experience.

Cheers. :cheers:

 

[socalsnake]

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to get back with all of this! I've got a foot in both camps; a long time (waning) BMW fan at heart that just bought my first Mustang. The F8X twins and the M235i are the only cars with a roundel that I've got any kind of love left for.

Your comments are what I was expecting. I'd love to get a chance to see how the M4's rack stacks up against the S550's. My GT's steering is a bit of a weak spot for me. Gets the job done and is above par, but it's not what I'd call natural or quick. It does feel underdamped, too.

How do you feel about the torque delivery on your M4? It gets a lot of criticism about having issues putting it down to the ground. Then again, most of these comments stem from track day critique and I'd be interested to know how that interferes with you 6-8/10ths driving experience.

Cheers. :cheers:

No problem...we all do love talking about cars!

Funny it took me a while to write a response as I was at work and going back and forth!

Torque delivery on the M4 is immense in a good way, but can be brutal if you just ham fist and blindly put the hammer down. Modulation of the throttle is something some M4 owners seem to lack. Its like saying that the C7 Z06 has too much torque and can be an oversteering monster - it can be but doesn't have to be.

My '03 cobra had a more immediate and shocking powerband when it came to torque (it had a 2.3L Whipple strapped to it), so the M4 isn't a shock too me. And the cobra didn't have the sophisticated gizmos that kept things in check.

If your're referring to the torque delivery of the M4 on the track with all the nannies turned off...throttle modulation is key and if you can manage that, the M3/M4 will reward you with some of your best lap times.

One thing I forgot to mention is the awesomeness of BMWs DCT. The latest dual clutch in this M4 is superb. I honestly think it is the best in the business even besting Porsche/VAG's much heralded PDK. Both upshift lightning fast and so smoothly, but the DCT downshifts and blips better/faster than the PDK...anyway thats my humble opinion.

 

[Dave2013M3]

Torque delivery on the M4 is immense in a good way, but can be brutal if you just ham fist and blindly put the hammer down. Modulation of the throttle is something some M4 owners seem to lack. Its like saying that the C7 Z06 has too much torque and can be an oversteering monster - it can be but doesn't have to be.

This is the reason why the 5.0PP is only .5 seconds behind the F8X cars. The car is severely undertired, for those of you who feel its because the chassis is up to snuff with the F8X cars is mistaken. The M4 I drove after the linear power delivery of the E92 M3 made me feel I had to treat the throttle like an egg shell coming out of the corners. I feel my E92 is more buttoned down than the 50PP car I drove extensively. I don't know why Ford under-damps these cars. The GT350 will probably be a whole different ball game...

Dave

 

[socalsnake]

This is the reason why the 5.0PP is only .5 seconds behind the F8X cars. The car is severely undertired, for those of you who feel its because the chassis is up to snuff with the F8X cars is mistaken. The M4 I drove after the linear power delivery of the E92 M3 made me feel I had to treat the throttle like an egg shell coming out of the corners. I feel my E92 is more buttoned down than the 50PP car I drove extensively. I don't know why Ford under-damps these cars. The GT350 will probably be a whole different ball game...

Dave

The GT350 will most likely be more akin to the character of the E46 and E92 M's than the current F8X M's are. Ford hit an undeniable home run with the GT350 for sure.

Totally agree with the lack of tire for the F8X chassis, but everyone thinks that a wider tire is the answer. Actually, I believe a stickier tire along with the proper suspension alignment is the first thing to be addressed. It did wonders for me. Tire width would be the next thing to address.

 

[Dave2013M3]

The GT350 will most likely be more akin to the character of the E46 and E92 M's than the current F8X M's are. Ford hit an undeniable home run with the GT350 for sure.

Totally agree with the lack of tire for the F8X chassis, but everyone thinks that a wider tire is the answer. Actually, I believe a stickier tire along with the proper suspension alignment is the first thing to be addressed. It did wonders for me. Tire width would be the next thing to address.

I don't know how much more sticker than you can get than the Mich PSS for a street tire. I only know that going to a 295/30/19 on my e92 M3 added a ton of mechanical grip.

 

[socalsnake]

I don't know how much more sticker than you can get than the Mich PSS for a street tire. I only know that going to a 295/30/19 on my e92 M3 added a ton of mechanical grip.

Nitto NT05, Nitto N555R, Nitto Invo, Toyo R888, Hankook V12 Evo 2, Bridgestone RE11A, Yokohama ADVAN, Continental Extreme Contact

All have much more grip than the PSS, but non will last as long as the PSS. Some are virtually street legal drag radials, but they are road legal and sticky.
Have considered them all before. The RE11a and ADVANS are like road magnets.

 

[Dave2013M3]

Nitto NT05, Nitto N555R, Nitto Invo, Toyo R888, Hankook V12 Evo 2, Bridgestone RE11A, Yokohama ADVAN, Continental Extreme Contact

All have much more grip than the PSS, but non will last as long as the PSS. Some are virtually street legal drag radials, but they are road legal and sticky.
Have considered them all before. The RE11a and ADVANS are like road magnets.

I'm sorry, I meant to say a tire that would be used on a OEM car. I had Nitto Invos as well as the V12 Evo's they aren't nearly as good as the PSS, nor is the Yoko's. The Conti 5Ps are incredible and they are a production tire. The RE11's as well as the Nitto NT05 will never be seen as an OEM tire.

The other issue is a lot of the tires you mentioned are very limited in their sizing.

Dave

 

[socalsnake]

I'm sorry, I meant to say a tire that would be used on a OEM car. I had Nitto Invos as well as the V12 Evo's they aren't nearly as good as the PSS, nor is the Yoko's. The Conti 5Ps are incredible and they are a production tire. The RE11's as well as the Nitto NT05 will never be seen as an OEM tire.

The other issue is a lot of the tires you mentioned are very limited in their sizing.

Dave

Ahhh well yes...the PSS is as good as it gets. Guess that's why most sports cars use it as OEM. It would've been nice if BMW at least put some 295s on the F8X M's. 315s would've been ideal.

 

[Stuntman]

Nitto NT05, Nitto N555R, Nitto Invo, Toyo R888, Hankook V12 Evo 2, Bridgestone RE11A, Yokohama ADVAN, Continental Extreme Contact

All have much more grip than the PSS, but non will last as long as the PSS. Some are virtually street legal drag radials, but they are road legal and sticky.
Have considered them all before. The RE11a and ADVANS are like road magnets.

From personal experience:

NT05 - Similar
NT555R - Drag tire, not a good road course tire (so WORSE)
Invo - WORSE
R888 - R Comp, slightly better
V12 Evo2 - WORSE
RE11A - Similar
ADVAN (AD08R?) - Similar
Extreme Contact - WORSE

 

[Dave2013M3]

From personal experience:

NT05 - Similar
NT555R - Drag tire, not a good road course tire (so WORSE)
Invo - WORSE
R888 - R Comp, slightly better
V12 Evo2 - WORSE
RE11A - Similar
ADVAN (AD08R?) - Similar
Extreme Contact - WORSE

The Continental Extreme Contact's physical grip isn't bad, its just the sidewalls are so soft. Thats one reason why they are so light.

The Continental SportContact 5Ps on the other hand are phenomenal and I feel are even better than the Mich PSS that I have on my E92 now.

They just didn't ave my sizing that I need...275/30/19 and 295/30/19.

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