GT350 vs. Z/28

[traxiii]

A true Killer Bee, but yeah, not my favorite either.

Sponsored

 

[thePill]

If first you don't succeed, try and try and try and try again...

As the GT350R's shadow time gets recirculated throughout the interwebs, we see this question pop up quite often... I guess it's more like a list of demands...

Time to post an offical Nurburgring "dry" lap time

Yes!!! It is about damn time!! Release the Kraken!!!

NOT!!! At least not right now anyway...

The truth is, Camorons are getting impatient. Not really being impatient on anything in particular, just fist-pumping in general. Next to the 6th Gen's "Dropping the Ball" and "Catastrophic Failure Delay's", the z28's "Dry" Ring time bun is in the oven. So what was the time exactly? Al Openbudweiser claims a 7:31... Not a 7:31.xx, just 7:31 for now. I can live with that... If only I felt like the z28 actually had a 7:31 in it. Before we start grilling, lets do a quick recap...

The 2014 z28 had a 2 week (10 day) spot in an Industry Pool at Nurburgring. The exact time is actually unknown but, we will just assume they matched the ZL1. I had heard it was over 40 laps, a few people said it was closer to 70 laps... So, between 40-70 laps in about 10 Days... How you say vroom, vroom??? That is a lot of lapping, very, very nice...

The '14 z28's best run was a 7:37.40, also very nice. Wait... what am I saying? They stopped the stopwatch before the finish line to help them by 1/2 of a second. Should this conduct really be observed and allowed amnesty? That is a pity too, that 7:37 was an "Official" lap time by Chevy. I laugh when I hear "Official" on the most unsupervised measuring sticks in vehicle testing. Al Openbudweiser went on to say that the very 7:37.40 was done on the last outing on the very last day of testing. He said the LAST set of laps on the LAST day. That is cutting it close... As I reported months earlier, the z28 was having a difficult time passing the ZL1's 7:41. It was also in contention with the C7 Z51's lap time, which STILL has not been released yet. You know what they say... If they didn't release it, it must be sh!t. Right fella's? Of course thePill is right. No time, No Spine.

I'm sure they will release the C7's lap time soon. They are most likely eager to advertise that time to bolster sales... Right?


No... for some reason, the time was withheld.

Back on Track (PUN!!!)

This is where things get tricky... lets dive into this piece of info. Taken from http://***************.com/106/2014-chevrolet-camaro-z28-sets-blistering-nurburgring-time-rain-video

"One of the challenges of testing at the 'Ring is that the track is so long that conditions can change radically in a single lap," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "Adam Dean, the development driver for Z/28, did a heroic job driving in deteriorating conditions. Based on telemetry data from our test sessions, we know the Z/28 can be as much as six seconds faster on a dry track."

Awwwwww Shiza!!!!

So, what I gathered from that is... Al O. acquired that 7:31 using SIMULATIONS??? AGAIN!?!?! Making a dumb comment is fine, winning by simulations has got to stop ASAP.

The arguments never end. Everyone ask about the video and this is a similar response. It is a Gentleman's agreement to not film when other prototypes are on the track. I completely understand that... Nobody want's their prototype captured on a Go-Pro and released via Youtube. Here is my issue though... The car went on a 40-70 lap onslaught for 2 weeks and had trouble breaking the C7 and ZL1's lap time. So, you mean to tell me while the camera is off, and again the z28 that had serious problems for 2 weeks/40-70 laps remember? Time and time again, the z28 lapped but never got close to a 7:40 right? Then, all of the sudden, while camera's were down, the z28 not only trimmed those 10 seconds off, IN TRAFFIC, it also ran exactly what your telemetry said it would? Bullsh!t, bullsh!t, bullsh!t...

Yes, simulated results to save money. I am tired of it to be honest. Tired of the media scraping Chevy along and pinning an "of the Year" award on them to help save them from the chopping block. Build a sub-standard vehicle and moan when people disagree. I absolutely refuse to get on board with this, more or less, lifeboat of compromises. The z28 was built on a 112.5 inch wheelbase and worked from a sub-optimal track. The z28 STILL isn't a legal, viable or competitive platform for road racing... Hell, it isn't good for racing period...

...and what of it? Two accomplished laps from the other side of the planet, different days, drivers and conditions... separated by a mere 100 feet... Less if you teach Chevy how to use a stopwatch.

Does anyone in here honestly and sincerely hold Chevy accountable for stopping the stopwatch early? I would like to know what Chevy guys think about tampering with "Official" Nurburgring Testing equipment. The same was done with the ZL1's time too... They started the watch late on the ZL1's Ringer Lap... Boooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

Anyway, some food for thought gentleman, food for thought. I would actually like to hear your opinions on this cheat-run the z28 eked out. Not a very honorable thing to do, especially when you are making the trip to Germany using bailout money. Funny thing though...

Here is a nice picture of the z28, with a big ol' ass-end plumpin' out the back. That has been somewhat remedied come 6th Gen, it is still rather large though. I never liked large hips and an impotent set of shoulders. Ug....

 

[Gudz2015]

you get so Silly on such small crap

 

[minjitta]

I don't wanted another Chevy bailout, let Chevy win all laps dance Pill

 

[thePill]

you get so Silly on such small crap

Nurburgring isn't "small crap" to Chevy, it is their entire business plan for the Camaro.

I wouldn't be so eager to give Chevy a pass. I would expect at the very least some integrity if that is the route they are going.

Integrity meaning, don't cheat the stop watch and don't use simulated telemetry to forecast your Nurburgring lap time. That is Grade-A bullsh!t... coming from a crew that won't even acknowledge the '13 GT500's private lap that beat the ZL1. Man oh man, if Ford pulled any of that "small crap" it wouldn't be small. It would be front page news because only Chevy can cheat and get away with it.

What is silly? lying and cheating or telling you that they lied and cheated? I for sure wouldn't want an automobile manufacturer to cut corners. Did they not get in trouble recently for doing the exact same thing for safety standards?

Does it seem feasible that they couldn't topple the ZL1's reported time for the 40+ laps... Then perform a wonderious miracle, in probably heavy traffic, shaving 10 seconds off the lap?

Wait... They never ran a 7:31... They simulated the damn run and told the media it was a "Dry" run. Get the f@ck outta here with that nonsense... If you couldn't record the run because other prototypes were running with you, fine. If your using telemetry data to assume that you would run a 7:31, that is silly.

Then why couldn't it manage a 7:31 for the 40-70 laps (likely some dry conditions in there)? Isn't that silly? I find it silly and it surely isn't small since ALL Nurburgring conversations stopped.

 

[Trackaholic]

I don't really care if the car ran a 7:30 or a 7:40. Sure, it's nice to know you have the bragging rights, but at my skill level (which is experienced, but not talented) I care more about balance, the ability to rotate, progressive breakaway, steering feel, shifter feel, long lasting brakes, and an engine that likes to rev.

The Camaro does a decent job at some of those aspects, and I hope the GT350 will really nail all of them. I like how Ford is less interested in publishing a single lap time, as if that tells the whole story about a car's performance, and instead seems to be focused on making a car that is going to be VERY fun to drive.

-T

 

[Taneras]

So, what I gathered from that is... Al O. acquired that 7:31 using SIMULATIONS??? AGAIN!?!?! Making a dumb comment is fine, winning by simulations has got to stop ASAP.

I actually think Chevy was smart here. Let the imaginations of their faithful imagine up better times for the Z28 than its capable of.

I watched a 7:19 Ring run by the ZR1 and it was a solid 10 seconds ahead of the Z28 when the rain started. So at best, even if it kept up with the ZR1's pace from that point, it was going to run a 7:29. It wasn't going to keep up with the ZR1's pace, though. It's most glaring issue, power:weight ratio, was going to be seen in the final straight, where the ZR1 looked to gain another 4-5 seconds on the Z28.

The "rain" might have taken 2-3 seconds off the Z28's lap time. No way its going to do a 7:31 though, before the straights it was already 10 seconds off with a few more turns to go and a long high speed straight left. It was going to lose more than 2 seconds through that last part of the track. I'm even willing to bet that Chevy has lap times for the Z28 on dry track that barely beat its official 7:37 time. But why release those?

Let the public's imagination imagine up better times. Go on YouTube on Chevy's channel where they posted the 7:37 run. Lots of people claiming that the rain took of 10-15 seconds.

BOOM! Good marketing. Dishonest? Sure! But still smart.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Wait... They never ran a 7:31... They simulated the damn run and told the media it was a "Dry" run. Get the f@ck outta here with that nonsense... If you couldn't record the run because other prototypes were running with you, fine. If your using telemetry data to assume that you would run a 7:31, that is silly.

Then why couldn't it manage a 7:31 for the 40-70 laps (likely some dry conditions in there)? Isn't that silly? I find it silly and it surely isn't small since ALL Nurburgring conversations stopped.

To me, "based on telemetry" sounds like a bunch of segment times were spliced together from different runs. Theoretical at best, and definitely optimistic. I'd much rather see a real 7:36 than a patched-together number that may in fact have been impossible to achieve (an "optimum exit from one segment not consistent with optimum entry to the next" kind of thing).


Norm

 

[thePill]

To me, "based on telemetry" sounds like a bunch of segment times were spliced together from different runs. Theoretical at best, and definitely optimistic. I'd much rather see a real 7:36 than a patched-together number that may in fact have been impossible to achieve (an "optimum exit from one segment not consistent with optimum entry to the next" kind of thing).


Norm

Absolutely, this is also the very same method my spies use to acquire theoretical times as well... However, they usually void the time if it is an accumulative result... As in, the best results, corner by corner, straight for straight, over the span of 10+ laps.

It needs to be a clean run and many times, these testers mess with time keepers.

I know Chevy's timing methods are different (stopwatch malfunctioning aside) and probably more accurate. That said, when I got the spread, it wasn't a 7:30-7:40 spread. It was a 7:40-7:50...

...Like you say, the best section times were probably used out of the 40+ laps accomplished. This is the absolute best case scenario and the chances of producing a lap like that... would be difficult...

I actually think Chevy was smart here. Let the imaginations of their faithful imagine up better times for the Z28 than its capable of.

I watched a 7:19 Ring run by the ZR1 and it was a solid 10 seconds ahead of the Z28 when the rain started. So at best, even if it kept up with the ZR1's pace from that point, it was going to run a 7:29. It wasn't going to keep up with the ZR1's pace, though. It's most glaring issue, power:weight ratio, was going to be seen in the final straight, where the ZR1 looked to gain another 4-5 seconds on the Z28.

The "rain" might have taken 2-3 seconds off the Z28's lap time. No way its going to do a 7:31 though, before the straights it was already 10 seconds off with a few more turns to go and a long high speed straight left. It was going to lose more than 2 seconds through that last part of the track. I'm even willing to bet that Chevy has lap times for the Z28 on dry track that barely beat its official 7:37 time. But why release those?

Let the public's imagination imagine up better times. Go on YouTube on Chevy's channel where they posted the 7:37 run. Lots of people claiming that the rain took of 10-15 seconds.

BOOM! Good marketing. Dishonest? Sure! But still smart.

As I reported before the time was released (I hope you guys remember). I was told that the z28 was having difficulty breaking the ZL1's established time (I'm not using "Official" anymore until I buy stock in the quote button). The reason (and I reported this here) was due to the very low top speed the z28 displayed on the 3km stretch. I believe it was over 10mph slower than the ZL1 and the LSA got up there faster.

I even gave an exact MPH if I remember... That is where the advantage was lost in every circumstance. The z28 beats feet to get there and then hasn't the gearing to keep up. I believe altering the final gear ratio to accommodate some top end would have a negative impact on exit speed.

Thus producing similar results while losing the seat of the pants advantage.

 

[Sasuketr]

Pill,
Why are we comparing a Gen5 to Gen6????? Even if the current 350r laps faster than a old gen z28 who cares. The z28 is old news man! We will see when they come up with a lighter more powerful 6Gen z28. When motortrend tested our new gt pp to a old gen 1le and we lost, i felt like shit seriously. I dont want to get carried away with an unofficial numbers. We got b.... hurt once, lets leave it at that!

 

[02gtnh]

Pill,
Why are we comparing a Gen5 to Gen6????? Even if the current 350r laps faster than a old gen z28 who cares. The z28 is old news man! We will see when they come up with a lighter more powerful 6Gen z28. When motortrend tested our new gt pp to a old gen 1le and we lost, i felt like shit seriously. I dont want to get carried away with an unofficial numbers. We got b.... hurt once, lets leave it at that!

Well said.:cheers:

 

[Taneras]

Pill,
Why are we comparing a Gen5 to Gen6????? Even if the current 350r laps faster than a old gen z28 who cares. The z28 is old news man! We will see when they come up with a lighter more powerful 6Gen z28. When motortrend tested our new gt pp to a old gen 1le and we lost, i felt like shit seriously. I dont want to get carried away with an unofficial numbers. We got b.... hurt once, lets leave it at that!

I don't see an issue comparing a 2014 Z28 to a 2015 GT350, especially when the price difference is likely 20kish.

Even if its an "R", so long as its not more expensive I'm game for the comparison.

The 1LE... I agree. It was released when? 2012? And its pretty much the same price.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Pill,
Why are we comparing a Gen5 to Gen6?????

Duhh . . . maybe because that's the only comparison that can be made at this point?

Even if the current 350r laps faster than a old gen z28 who cares.

How much might be important even for bench racers. Maybe especially for bench racers.

The z28 is old news man! We will see when they come up with a lighter more powerful 6Gen z28. When motortrend tested our new gt pp to a old gen 1le and we lost, i felt like shit seriously. I dont want to get carried away with an unofficial numbers. We got b.... hurt once, lets leave it at that!

I can't fix how you feel, and I probably can't convince you that the GTPP was less aggressively tuned than the existing 1LE for reasons involving wider customer acceptance.

Butt-hurt is what you let happen to yourself when you don't look any deeper than the numbers some magazine serves up. Seeing why things happened the way they did, and what you could do to correct them in your own car is what you should be taking away from that comparison.

Hell, the current 1LE has been my bogey for modifying my 100+ HP weaker '08 ever since that car showed up on the market. Doing instead of reading and whining has got me within a couple seconds a lap on the local track of a 1LE owner who has about the same amount of track experience as I have. My glass is half full, not half empty.


Norm

 

[Sasuketr]

Duhh . . . maybe because that's the only comparison that can be made at this point?



How much might be important even for bench racers. Maybe especially for bench racers.



I can't fix how you feel, and I probably can't convince you that the GTPP was less aggressively tuned than the existing 1LE for reasons involving wider customer acceptance.

Butt-hurt is what you let happen to yourself when you don't look any deeper than the numbers some magazine serves up. Seeing why things happened the way they did, and what you could do to correct them in your own car is what you should be taking away from that comparison.

Hell, the current 1LE has been my bogey for modifying my 100+ HP weaker '08 ever since that car showed up on the market. Doing instead of reading and whining has got me within a couple seconds a lap on the local track of a 1LE owner who has about the same amount of track experience as I have. My glass is half full, not half empty.


Norm

Yes, but i don't really care about the things that can be done with after market components! If i spend enough money hack i can even go as fast as want! The problem is what is being delivered from the factory. When i make a new product i always try to make it better in every way. If GM turnes out to be the one proving that they are going forward in every way then Ford needs to start reconsidering their calculations. And i still think comparing a 2014 z28 to a 2016 350 r as irrelevant. Lets talk when the new generion is out and see where we are at.

 

[thePill]

Pill,
Why are we comparing a Gen5 to Gen6????? Even if the current 350r laps faster than a old gen z28 who cares. The z28 is old news man! We will see when they come up with a lighter more powerful 6Gen z28. When motortrend tested our new gt pp to a old gen 1le and we lost, i felt like shit seriously. I dont want to get carried away with an unofficial numbers. We got b.... hurt once, lets leave it at that!

There are a few other reasons this has to happen that wasn't explained above...

1.) Chevy wanted it... and now they are going to get it... Chevy had zero issues comparing a 2014 z28 to a 2012 Boss 302 in their first comparison. I didn't expect the Boss to win, I doubt Ford did either. The Boss 302 was the only Mustang Ford homologated in Grand Am. I think everyone was under the impression that the z28 would have been more competition ready.

Not that a severely restricted 5 liter really had a chance against a nearly unrestricted 7 liter, it was Ford's only sanctioned Mustang in that class. Hot Rod magazine even put a match to Al O. in an interview about the subject, courtesy of yours truly, thePill, in little ol' Pittsburgh... So while the z28 reigned supreme, it did so against a helpless, out-of-production Boss that was going on 2 years old...

First they released their own media stunt at Milford, then Motor Trend collaborated... using the same Laguna Seca as Chevy did I believe. Parading around the media in a vehicle that had no limitations except tax payers money... While the Boss 302 was specifically designed for Grand Am GS to go head to head with a REAL competitor, the BMW M3.

Now... Ford has developed a similar species of performance vehicle.

2.) Even though Chevy and the media padded this things ass in these magazine comparisons, the z28 won the comparisons. The z28 can truly record a single lap faster than a Boss 302 Laguna Seca. Does everybody understand what that means? That means that NO MATTER WHAT, the outgoing winner will be the standard. The GT350R was specifically built to homologate the vehicle in the Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge GS. However, it seems Ford is using some of the z28's benefits this time... using the Suspension of Unicorn, which is still a NO-GO in every competitive class Worldwide.

Thankfully, Ford provided the competitive Mustang enthusiast with more than just a list of expensive equipment. The GT350 only needs a few minor changes and you are good for a lot of classes in the SCCA and NASA... I even have doubts that the GT350R will be permitted in NASA Solo too. The Boss 302 Laguna Seca was banned...

(Cont...)

Sponsored