10R80 Downshift Response Improvement

[ZXMustang]

This is the table in HPT that Mike's referring to. Shift character table. There is 0, 1 and 2 for the gen3. They corespond to base, ALT1 and ALT2 shift scenarios. I say scenarios because those three are referenced in many parts of the trans shift configuration. Simply change the shift characters for the different modes does help, but you need to carry all the shift schedules with it include all the tq converter tables for lock, unlock and slip. Plus all the clutch inertial and incoming and offgoing tq values. Everything is tied togther. Its easier said than done and remember we are tip of the ice burg here with what we can actually change. There are 10x as many parameters that arent defined and we wont be able to see or change. This is territory that most tuners stay away from since it can open a sink hole to god knows what. This is from an OEM cal from a 22GT 10R80. OFF is like any other scenario other than SST (select shift manual mode) and LID (leave in drive mode). Mud is track mode and sand is drag. Sport/track is actually just sport/sportS.

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[ZXMustang]

To add more to this, there are other ways to make it shift smooth as butter and help it down shift faster that are far simpler than trying to reinvent the wheel with trans tuning. Believe it or not Ford has most of this right, but it needs to be "sharpened" to work the way you would feel it should.

I have a few tricks that took a good year of R&D to test and roll out, but since then I have been able to make many a happy tuning customer with these changes that gives them what feels like a whole new car. On top of being noticeably faster. One thing I've learned in the years and hundreds and hundreds of these I've tuned is that less is more and thats even more crucial when tuning for boost. Remember "LESS IS MORE". Thats all Im sayin.

 

[engineermike]

@ZXMustang to be clear, the table auF66752 that the thread is about isn't defined in hptuners. It assigns the shift schedules to the drive modes. It does not assign shift characters to drive modes.

...all the shift schedules with it include all the tq converter tables for lock, unlock and slip. Plus all the clutch inertial and incoming and offgoing tq values. Everything is tied togther. Its easier said than done and remember we are tip of the ice burg here with what we can actually change.

I actually spent weeks working on a single shift and experimenting using focused, high speed data logging and I figured out what all of those transmission parameters actually do. It's very interesting once you figure it all out, how many phases each shift has, what each phase does, and what each sub-phase does.

There are 10x as many parameters that arent defined and we wont be able to see or change.

You must be talking about HPTuners, specifically.

 

[ZXMustang]

@ZXMustang to be clear, the table auF66752 that the thread is about isn't defined in hptuners. It assigns the shift schedules to the drive modes. It does not assign shift characters to drive modes.



I actually spent weeks working on a single shift and experimenting using focused, high speed data logging and I figured out what all of those transmission parameters actually do. It's very interesting once you figure it all out, how many phases each shift has, what each phase does, and what each sub-phase does.



You must be talking about HPTuners, specifically.

No man every drive mode is assigned a shift schedule and its all in HP Tuners. Very granular actually. And shift schedule isnt shift character. I specialize in the 10R80 and have been well down this road far too far actually...lol But every drive mode has a separate shift schedule all controlled by both pedal position % vs OSS. Its very granular actually, for both up and down as well as other down shift scenarios. You can also separate TC enabled shift schedules, in ABS schedules for up and down as well as select shift once you enable it for auto upshift.

Normal mode with skip shift schedule. And if you like you can copy the sport values and paste them directly into this table. Essentially making normal mode shift like sport.

You can do the same by rescaling the pedal demand for normal to match sport for both scale and values.

 

[ZXMustang]

And lastly you would change the shift character to match whats used in sport to completely make normal shift like sport. All the AL1 tables would be used instead of the base shift characters for pressures and tq modulation and so on. PCMTec is nice, but its still in its infancy. My Partner works directly with them and has been getting it sorted out for the s650 for multitune. They have it done but the tunes arent as refined with the s650 since you cant flash an HP Tuners tune then read it out with PCMTec yet. They still are unable to read the s650.

 

[mejohn50]

This is going to be fun to watch.

 

[engineermike]

No man every drive mode is assigned a shift schedule and its all in HP Tuners. Very granular actually. And shift schedule isnt shift character. I specialize in the 10R80 and have been well down this road far too far actually...lol But every drive mode has a separate shift schedule....

Sorry but I'm NOT talking about the shift character assignment table (ECM20044, auF66748). I'm talking about assigning the shift schedules to drive modes. This is table auF66752 in PCMTech, for which there is no HPTuners equivalent. Do this test to prove it. Take a Gen3 5.0 F150 and make changes to the "eco" shift schedule, put it in eco mode, then drive it. You will see that it makes no difference. Change the base shift schedules and it does affect eco mode. Next, in table 66752, change column 6 (eco drive mode) to 14 (eco shift schedule), and you will see that your changes worked this time. That's because the default from Ford is to assign base shift schedules (0) to eco drive mode (6).

The shift characters have been well understood for a long time, so this wouldn't be new information. But as far as I can tell, it's not widely known how the shift schedules are assigned to drive modes. It just so happens that 0 and 1 (base and sport) are defaulted to 0 and 1, respectively, so changes made to base affect base and sport affects sport. If you wanted base to act completely like sport without copying over all the shift schedules, you could simply replace the 0 with a 1 in the 0 column and make the corresponding character assignment change in 66748.

 

[ZXMustang]

And lastly you would change the shift character to match whats used in sport to completely make normal shift like sport. All the AL1 tables would be used instead of the base shift characters for pressures and tq modulation and so on. PCMTec is nice, but its still in its infancy. My Partner works directly with them and has been getting it sorted out for the s650 for multitune. They have it done but the tunes arent as refined with the s650 since you cant flash an HP Tuners tune then read it out with PCMTec yet. They still are unable to read the s650.

Brother, did you not see my post right above that clearly shows the drive mode shift schedules. Eco is right there. I can make changes to that table by changing OSS values for any given pedal demand. Im not sure whos confused here but I feel like you are gaslighting me lol. The upshift and down shift - shift schedules are all listed in the tune file in HP Tuners under the shift schedules tab. I screen shotted them right above your last post. Any change I make in any table thats used on the truck or mustang is directly translated to the RPM it shifts at. Then to make pressure, tq modulation or many other changes, you can use any of the three characters and assign them to that mode. What you are saying isnt defined is exactly what I've shown.

 

[engineermike]

...PCMTec is nice, but its still in its infancy. ..

PCMTec many times the tuning parameters and probably 1000x the logging parameters vs its major competitor. It's not for beginners, but case in point in this thread, you have access to way more if you really want to dig deep. Even something like flex fuel can't really work right in gen3 and S650 without the parameters defined in PCMTec.

 

[engineermike]

Brother, did you not see my post right above that clearly shows the drive mode shift schedules. Eco is right there. I can make changes to that table by changing OSS values for any given pedal demand. Im not sure whos confused here but I feel like you are gaslighting me lol. The upshift and down shift - shift schedules are all listed in the tune file in HP Tuners under the shift schedules tab. I screen shotted them right above your last post. Any change I make in any table thats used on the truck or mustang is directly translated to the RPM it shifts at.

Yes, I know the eco shift schedules are defined in HPT. But if the eco schedule isn't actually assigned to a drive mode then changing it won't affect anything. Seeing it and making it work are two different things.

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