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Mustang is my middle name
thePill's head does take up most of his avatar. :lol:
I look forward to hearing his insight, jokes and camaro put downs in this new year!
JohnZiraldo
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I wish I had balls as big as ThePill's to be willing to tell the world what I think I know, and what I believe or wish to be true. Whether ThePill is 100% accurate or 10%, he is 100+% entertaining and we are all better off for it.
I for one will not criticize ThePill for accuracy until I can contribute at least one quarter as much to this forum as he does.
Rant on please Mr.ThePill!
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thePill
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Thank You too all and again, Happy New Year!!!
...and, it's funny that someone would say that. thePill is a joke... he has been since March 8th, 2010. I have loads of fun here and get my point across more effectively on M6G. I also enjoy practicing my grammar and articulation. With the exception of Public Speaking in Speech, writing to the public in a Blog-type format in real time is hard to do. Blogging allows it's hecklers but... Blogcasting (lol), like I rather do, its difficult to do... I'm always open for real-time feedback, good or bad...
Regardless, no matter how people feel, there is certainly no need to eliminate those sources of negative criticism, ever... unless they are being completely absurd.
...but that's not why I write to you today...
Sometimes, I get PM's, Text, Emails and Facebook with individuals with "info". Some of those people post on here and are known, some are just Guest status and ring me elsewhere, yes, sometimes on the phone.
...and I am really grateful for everyones help. I most likely wouldn't ever write if it wasn't for your insight. Thank You... but at the same time, I need to hear the same thing from other sources before I start getting specific as some of you suggest (as you give me the info). I need time to at least attempt to verify from one other source... I am not trying to be rude and I am not ignoring you. I just need to hear it again before I start flappin' my gums.
Where does the GT350 stand with the z28 and, what is the GT350R?
According to a couple of people better than me, our base GT350 will be "head to head competitive" with the $77,000 z28. If we were to go track by track, the GT350 would probably one up the z28 at a majority of them.
There is a very good reason for that... The vehicles that lap the Ring are equipped with anything from a simple Roll Bar to a full tilt 10-12 Point Roll Cage. The 7:39 GT500 and 7:41 ZL1's were both in full armor... The American Ninja, the z28, I mean the ACTUAL car that made the lap, is missing. The car in the Media Event Photo's were taken at Milford and initially pushed off as pictures from Nurburgring and the actual car. I called that to their attention and to this day, the actual z28 has NEVER been seen.
Now however, the world is watching and I feel the Michelin's were a great choice for Street/Track. I feel an upgrade is needed for competition, just to protect the vehicle and driver alone.
What is the GT350R???
...and thePill ask
Will there be an issue with front brake sizes in the SCCA?
I have asked and asked about the GT350R, I was hoping Ford wasn't going to get dragged into... First of all, I wanted to find a MSRP from a few more people. I was looking for a Boss 302 MSRP but, I get laughed at when I bring up a $42-49,000 MSRP. I got some numbers thrown at me and it doesn't seem likely... I took what I was told and, I tried to do the math myself AND, acquire my own resources for the weights of brand new components. If I try hard, I can get you a GT350 for $55,000. Again, this is a number based on the accumulative cost of new components vs. that of a GT PP Coupe. I cannot get the car under $50,000... but understand, this is in no way accurate. However, I am hearing mid-50's as well and was told
Assuming the GT350 is $55,000, where would that put the GT350R?
That is just speculation and was some time ago. They really don't know any more than anyone else to be honest. First, I want to get into the front brake size thingy. The issue is with the potential front brake disc size. The SCCA limits the maximum size of the rotors. As a manufacturer, you don't want to limit your product to just a single organization and Solo or Time Trials if your trying to market the car as a track/race car. The average customer won't know nor care but, the GT350 has heritage and I'm sure Ford wants to sweep some classes. The reason that might happen is because of this new 5.2 and not being gagged to death YET. The FPC could sweep their respective classes much like the Boss 302 did in 2011 and 2012 before being restricted to death. The z28 had an opportunity to do this as well but, Porsche and BMW ain't tryin' ta' hear' dat.
I can't help but hear the same song over and over, the z28's tires are the z28... They are indeed superior but, as I was told a few months ago, "they go fast near my limit" and then turn to grease. I can't help to think where the z28 would be in a set of Michelin's and a suspension tuned to accommodate them. We seen a Boss 302 in Race rubber follow a brand new '14 z28 on an Open Track Event. The Boss was GoPro'd and, in my honest opinion, forced the driver into a mistake... or at least pushed him to elevate his driving tempo for sure... Now that's a kill... and that is what the z28 should have been on a massive scale. To be honest, the 1LE really isn't luring them in and recapturing the spirit as some hoped it would. In reality, they just laid down 3 of a kind... In cards, that isn't bad... In sales, it's crap and doomed to die. They are repeating this tired method with Gen 5 and Gen 6.
I don't want the GT350 being unreal, like, an unbelievably unusable show piece for Jay Leno and Barrett-Jackson. I want the GT350 to stink like a race track, to smell like rubber and hot metal from work... real work, that can be sustained. I want everyone here to be capable of registering the car and competing if you could handle the car at that speed.
The last z28 weighed in a magazine did so at 3882lbs... What about GT350 weight? Can I see them getting any lower than 3704lbs? Did they say it would? I have my figures crossed they can break 3700lbs. There have been so many changes that I cannot even make a guess to do anyone any justice. I am hearing it is going to be lighter. I have also found out that the Mustang's curb weight consist of either the Premium Package and Recaro's OR the Performance Package and Recaro's... Not both. A Premium GT can be up to 3775lbs and a Loaded Lot Queen is just over 3800. They NEVER talk about the lighter Base GT at all. They only bring it up in Europe at 3640-3660lbs without Recaro's. I hope the GT350 isn't merely de-contenting freakin' content that should have been DE'd in the first place. There is an over abundance of NVH to make the GT a... well... GT... I was told a step up... It was many...
(G'Night)
...and, it's funny that someone would say that. thePill is a joke... he has been since March 8th, 2010. I have loads of fun here and get my point across more effectively on M6G. I also enjoy practicing my grammar and articulation. With the exception of Public Speaking in Speech, writing to the public in a Blog-type format in real time is hard to do. Blogging allows it's hecklers but... Blogcasting (lol), like I rather do, its difficult to do... I'm always open for real-time feedback, good or bad...
Regardless, no matter how people feel, there is certainly no need to eliminate those sources of negative criticism, ever... unless they are being completely absurd.
...but that's not why I write to you today...
Sometimes, I get PM's, Text, Emails and Facebook with individuals with "info". Some of those people post on here and are known, some are just Guest status and ring me elsewhere, yes, sometimes on the phone.
...and I am really grateful for everyones help. I most likely wouldn't ever write if it wasn't for your insight. Thank You... but at the same time, I need to hear the same thing from other sources before I start getting specific as some of you suggest (as you give me the info). I need time to at least attempt to verify from one other source... I am not trying to be rude and I am not ignoring you. I just need to hear it again before I start flappin' my gums.
Where does the GT350 stand with the z28 and, what is the GT350R?
According to a couple of people better than me, our base GT350 will be "head to head competitive" with the $77,000 z28. If we were to go track by track, the GT350 would probably one up the z28 at a majority of them.
On one hand I am glad Ford sticks to their guns and doesn't advertise Nurburgring lap times.
There is a very good reason for that... The vehicles that lap the Ring are equipped with anything from a simple Roll Bar to a full tilt 10-12 Point Roll Cage. The 7:39 GT500 and 7:41 ZL1's were both in full armor... The American Ninja, the z28, I mean the ACTUAL car that made the lap, is missing. The car in the Media Event Photo's were taken at Milford and initially pushed off as pictures from Nurburgring and the actual car. I called that to their attention and to this day, the actual z28 has NEVER been seen.
I personally feel the proposed tires on the GT350 are too expensive as well but, a far better street tire. In the past, Ford has basically shoed the horse with the cheapest tire possible because they knew they were being changed... but received heavy criticism for it. The performance was also affected to a large degree... adding tire to the S197 yields results.
Now however, the world is watching and I feel the Michelin's were a great choice for Street/Track. I feel an upgrade is needed for competition, just to protect the vehicle and driver alone.
This is pure speculation I believe although, there is a very good chance that it will. I keep hearing 525hp...
What is the GT350R???
...and thePill ask
Will there be an issue with front brake sizes in the SCCA?
I have asked and asked about the GT350R, I was hoping Ford wasn't going to get dragged into... First of all, I wanted to find a MSRP from a few more people. I was looking for a Boss 302 MSRP but, I get laughed at when I bring up a $42-49,000 MSRP. I got some numbers thrown at me and it doesn't seem likely... I took what I was told and, I tried to do the math myself AND, acquire my own resources for the weights of brand new components. If I try hard, I can get you a GT350 for $55,000. Again, this is a number based on the accumulative cost of new components vs. that of a GT PP Coupe. I cannot get the car under $50,000... but understand, this is in no way accurate. However, I am hearing mid-50's as well and was told
But for some reason, I keep getting the feeling Ford will somehow prove me wrong. I can never be for sure...
Assuming the GT350 is $55,000, where would that put the GT350R?
Well, If there was a need for another Mustang, would there be one ready? Wasn't there already a GT350R confirmed?
Assuming the GT350 is $55,000, where would that put the GT350R?
Is that just a guess or an industry standard or team goal?
Is the "R" a street car or "Race Only" Turnkey Racecar?
Will there be an issue with the brake size on the GT350 or GT350? 380mm is usually the maximum size in SCCA?
Can you find out more on that please?
That is just speculation and was some time ago. They really don't know any more than anyone else to be honest. First, I want to get into the front brake size thingy. The issue is with the potential front brake disc size. The SCCA limits the maximum size of the rotors. As a manufacturer, you don't want to limit your product to just a single organization and Solo or Time Trials if your trying to market the car as a track/race car. The average customer won't know nor care but, the GT350 has heritage and I'm sure Ford wants to sweep some classes. The reason that might happen is because of this new 5.2 and not being gagged to death YET. The FPC could sweep their respective classes much like the Boss 302 did in 2011 and 2012 before being restricted to death. The z28 had an opportunity to do this as well but, Porsche and BMW ain't tryin' ta' hear' dat.
I can't help but hear the same song over and over, the z28's tires are the z28... They are indeed superior but, as I was told a few months ago, "they go fast near my limit" and then turn to grease. I can't help to think where the z28 would be in a set of Michelin's and a suspension tuned to accommodate them. We seen a Boss 302 in Race rubber follow a brand new '14 z28 on an Open Track Event. The Boss was GoPro'd and, in my honest opinion, forced the driver into a mistake... or at least pushed him to elevate his driving tempo for sure... Now that's a kill... and that is what the z28 should have been on a massive scale. To be honest, the 1LE really isn't luring them in and recapturing the spirit as some hoped it would. In reality, they just laid down 3 of a kind... In cards, that isn't bad... In sales, it's crap and doomed to die. They are repeating this tired method with Gen 5 and Gen 6.
I don't want the GT350 being unreal, like, an unbelievably unusable show piece for Jay Leno and Barrett-Jackson. I want the GT350 to stink like a race track, to smell like rubber and hot metal from work... real work, that can be sustained. I want everyone here to be capable of registering the car and competing if you could handle the car at that speed.
The last z28 weighed in a magazine did so at 3882lbs... What about GT350 weight? Can I see them getting any lower than 3704lbs? Did they say it would? I have my figures crossed they can break 3700lbs. There have been so many changes that I cannot even make a guess to do anyone any justice. I am hearing it is going to be lighter. I have also found out that the Mustang's curb weight consist of either the Premium Package and Recaro's OR the Performance Package and Recaro's... Not both. A Premium GT can be up to 3775lbs and a Loaded Lot Queen is just over 3800. They NEVER talk about the lighter Base GT at all. They only bring it up in Europe at 3640-3660lbs without Recaro's. I hope the GT350 isn't merely de-contenting freakin' content that should have been DE'd in the first place. There is an over abundance of NVH to make the GT a... well... GT... I was told a step up... It was many...
(G'Night)
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thePill
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WARNING:
Carbon Ceramic Brakes and Magnetic Ride Control
I am including both together just because I think these will be around more in the future. It is possible that the GT350 has these options OR, a Mustang soon after WILL. For those that have the Competitive heart. IF YOU INTEND TO RACE/COMPETE, these two systems have unique software calibrations and cannot just be merely swapped out. I am not sure a swap-out is even possible with the MRC, I believe everything needs to come out.
The CC brakes are likely the same way, everything but the brake lines must go. I'm not sure the ABS would ever function properly either so, in both situations, the computers would need specialized tuning.
My advice, and if your serious you probably don't need it, keep it cheap and simple. The 2-Piece rotors are disposable and easy to scale to fit the wheel. We are wanting to drop to an 18x10 as soon as possible so, roll them damn Carbon Ceramic Brakes down the hill and save your money. Believe this or not, I was told by both Ford and Chevy that the Carbon Ceramic Brakes that vehicles intend on using are actually HEAVIER than the Steel equivalent. So, most people will argue this but, according to the manufacturers, these Carbon Ceramic Brake kits are heavier...
Magnetic Ride Control is awesome... It is the future of shocks unless a Fluid-less design is invented, Bad things are weight and cost... Cost is coming down but it will never be the same as conventional strut/shock systems. If you option this, you extremely limit you options for competition. I haven't seen a fix for this yet and, I am not sure if there is one. From what I have seen, the whole ABS, Traction Control and Electric Power Steering are affected.
Kind this in mind though, this is only for COMPETITION bound GT350's. CCB and MRC is more than acceptable for Track Days and Driving Experience Events.
Carbon Ceramic Brakes and Magnetic Ride Control
I am including both together just because I think these will be around more in the future. It is possible that the GT350 has these options OR, a Mustang soon after WILL. For those that have the Competitive heart. IF YOU INTEND TO RACE/COMPETE, these two systems have unique software calibrations and cannot just be merely swapped out. I am not sure a swap-out is even possible with the MRC, I believe everything needs to come out.
The CC brakes are likely the same way, everything but the brake lines must go. I'm not sure the ABS would ever function properly either so, in both situations, the computers would need specialized tuning.
My advice, and if your serious you probably don't need it, keep it cheap and simple. The 2-Piece rotors are disposable and easy to scale to fit the wheel. We are wanting to drop to an 18x10 as soon as possible so, roll them damn Carbon Ceramic Brakes down the hill and save your money. Believe this or not, I was told by both Ford and Chevy that the Carbon Ceramic Brakes that vehicles intend on using are actually HEAVIER than the Steel equivalent. So, most people will argue this but, according to the manufacturers, these Carbon Ceramic Brake kits are heavier...
Magnetic Ride Control is awesome... It is the future of shocks unless a Fluid-less design is invented, Bad things are weight and cost... Cost is coming down but it will never be the same as conventional strut/shock systems. If you option this, you extremely limit you options for competition. I haven't seen a fix for this yet and, I am not sure if there is one. From what I have seen, the whole ABS, Traction Control and Electric Power Steering are affected.
Kind this in mind though, this is only for COMPETITION bound GT350's. CCB and MRC is more than acceptable for Track Days and Driving Experience Events.
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Trackaholic
Well-Known Member
I know we saw pictures of the test prototypes with CCB's, so I'm sure they will be available at some point. I suspect that they may be part of the "extreme version" (similar to the Boss 302LS) that has been rumored to be called the GT350R (although it seems unclear whether that is equivalent to the Boss 302LS street car or whether it will be equivalent to the Boss 302S/R race car chassis). In any event, I fully expect those to be available in some form, but maybe not on the base car (although an option for them would be interesting).
Ford has said that MRC WILL be optional.
I personally would get the MRC (in order to have a nice combination of street and track capability), but would skip the CCB's. While I like the performance of the CCB's, I can do quite a few track days (and replace my iron rotors) with that savings.
-T
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thePill
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I can justify a GT for Competition, I always anticipate damage and the cost is literally the same as the S197 in many areas. The base GT is a sub-3600lbs car on a 1/4 tank, with the way it performs as is, I don't think I need to go any faster. The GT is on the verge of alienating itself from its regular classes. I can't handle T1 and GTS times at any track, I could barely wring out an '11 Brembo at my home track.
I can buy a replacement for my 2011 Mustang and be nearly the same weight, a tad bit more power, a considerable jump in road and street performance and, the kicker, it will be $3000 cheaper.
I am in the market for a GT350 but, it's for status and status alone... which is why I have a looming want/need for a 2017 GT500.
I can buy a replacement for my 2011 Mustang and be nearly the same weight, a tad bit more power, a considerable jump in road and street performance and, the kicker, it will be $3000 cheaper.
I am in the market for a GT350 but, it's for status and status alone... which is why I have a looming want/need for a 2017 GT500.
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Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
As I understand it, MRC programming is pretty damn complex, so what (if any) opportunities are likely to exist for individuals or even small teams to tweak transient handling via damping adjustments? Or is everybody but maybe a couple of top-shelf teams going to be stuck with however the OE programming is set up? A second question involves curiosity about what the damping(s) would default to should either power or communication to one or more of the dampers be [abruptly] lost while at speed.
I hope that anybody messing with CC brakes remains aware of the potential for damaging them during any "routine" maintenance. I know that the repair industry is aware of this (poke around over at Brake & Front End's site, I've read about this in their print magazine).
Norm
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I have friends with Corvette ZR1s equipped with CC brakes. If the pads wear down enough to trigger the wheel sensor, the sensors need replacing at about $160.00 each. If you ignore the warning the sensor gives you, rotor replacement is in your future. I have also been told by these same owners that the CC brakes take time to heat up before they deliver the performance one would expect.
I prefer my old iron rotors and solid axle relic.
I prefer my old iron rotors and solid axle relic.
Trackaholic
Well-Known Member
Good thing you aren't a Porsche fanatic.
They make it easy to go in looking at a base Cayman and come away dreaming about a 911 GT3. Just when you get your $55,000 Cayman optioned, you see that you can actually get a Cayman S, but then you say, well, a base 911 is about the same as an optioned Cayman S. Next thing you know, you're trying to figure out how to sell your house and live in the back seats of a GT3 (which is tough, since they get rid of the rear seats in that car).
At least the GT500 will have a larger back seat (and maybe you can even afford to keep your house).
-T
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thePill
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These new technologies are frustrating...
This could go either way... It could be the balls, an evolution of the original '66 and 2000 Cobra R. Not for children and most likely, not for most of us here. Or, it could be their version of the unicorn Chevy just threw together on a very bad platform. The R could just specifically be to win magazine tug fest :(
Regardless... It's coming Jan 15th...
This could go either way... It could be the balls, an evolution of the original '66 and 2000 Cobra R. Not for children and most likely, not for most of us here. Or, it could be their version of the unicorn Chevy just threw together on a very bad platform. The R could just specifically be to win magazine tug fest :(
Regardless... It's coming Jan 15th...
Backorder
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These new technologies are frustrating...
This could go either way... It could be the balls, an evolution of the original '66 and 2000 Cobra R. Not for children and most likely, not for most of us here. Or, it could be their version of the unicorn Chevy just threw together on a very bad platform. The R could just specifically be to win magazine tug fest :(
Regardless... It's coming Jan 15th...
If it's an evolution of 66 and 2000 then it is going for the jugular and I would hope it would be very Z28 like in the aspect it would be mostly stripped down. No rear seats, no sound deadening, etc...also would wonder how limited it would be as they only made 300 of the 2000 cobra Rs right?
It'll be interesting for sure. I'll be looking at the regular GT350 since it'll already be more than I can handle, but I can't wait to see which route ford takes with the R
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thePill
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RUMOR:
The 2015/'16 GT350 will start at $53,000. I have heard this quite often and increasingly as of late. The Track Package is said to be more costly than the GT's "PP". The GT350 shouldn't break $60,000 to be competitive with the z28.
There is suppose to be a "Track Package" that is priced above the GT's "Performance Package". This "GT350TP" is the car they used to go head to head with the 2015 z28... Not the GT350R. According to a number of different birdies, the GT350 is not only head to head with the z28, it is more stable, inspires more confidence and, can actually perform consistent laps AS IS. There are a good number of tracks and an even better number of laps the GT350 bested the z28. Although, there is a "Spot" where the z28 is very competitive (tires and brakes are hot). There are areas that the z28 cannot be matched in when it is hot. Most of this has a great deal to do with the tires. The GT350 is "Faster than the Continental Tire Boss 302 in equal rubber". This will be a pretty big boast if they go public with this approach. It is likely they keep their mouths shut and let the media sort it out. I can't remember what the z28 did at Laguna Seca but, a 2011 Boss 302R was doing laps at Laguna in under 1:35.
The GT350R is a COMPETITION MODEL. Some say it is Competition ONLY, Some say it is (and will) be advertised as SCCA compliant (Like the 2011 GT350NA was). I have heard this from a pretty reliable guy. I am looking for a follow up to this but haven't heard anything back. From what I was told about the GT350, the GT350R is going to be a near Pro GT Class Competition Racecar. As in, a serious racecar. This would thwart any plans Chevy had on luring Ford into a HALO car battle with a Pig Tit. If you want a GT350 equipped with all the fixins' then option a GT350 that way.
No Convertible!!! This could be a way they save some major weight. Taking out that extra 50-70lbs of unneeded reinforcement. Might leave it in though, it could be adding some serious rigidity. The Mustang NEVER had a scalable platform like this...
You see, the GT350 is completely new from the A Pillar up. This means that the actual platform has been developed with interchangeable sub sections. A lot like the new M3/M4. The M4 was developed FIRST and then the car was scaled down. The GT350 could have an All Aluminum Cradle in the front. That is the only one of two reasons vehicles are develop like this. To add in/take out sections for more model flexibility AND, to add/remove sections for greater Global flexibility to take on multiple body styles across multiple platforms. In both situations, it usually saves weight and money initially. It cost more to replace parts long term but saves money in labor time. It's kind of a wash.... Major drawbacks using a Global platform though.
My friends at Camaro6 loves to hear me talk about the Alpha, apparently thePill is all the rage over there.
I will never understand their enthusiasm for a shared platform in this day and age of the automobile. It's 2015 for pities sake, time for a dedicated platform for the Camaro. The Alpha is what they needed in 2003, it's not gonna help you much in this situation. It could be catastrophic long term, especially when they didn't change the general look.
(Cont...)
The 2015/'16 GT350 will start at $53,000. I have heard this quite often and increasingly as of late. The Track Package is said to be more costly than the GT's "PP". The GT350 shouldn't break $60,000 to be competitive with the z28.
There is suppose to be a "Track Package" that is priced above the GT's "Performance Package". This "GT350TP" is the car they used to go head to head with the 2015 z28... Not the GT350R. According to a number of different birdies, the GT350 is not only head to head with the z28, it is more stable, inspires more confidence and, can actually perform consistent laps AS IS. There are a good number of tracks and an even better number of laps the GT350 bested the z28. Although, there is a "Spot" where the z28 is very competitive (tires and brakes are hot). There are areas that the z28 cannot be matched in when it is hot. Most of this has a great deal to do with the tires. The GT350 is "Faster than the Continental Tire Boss 302 in equal rubber". This will be a pretty big boast if they go public with this approach. It is likely they keep their mouths shut and let the media sort it out. I can't remember what the z28 did at Laguna Seca but, a 2011 Boss 302R was doing laps at Laguna in under 1:35.
The GT350R is a COMPETITION MODEL. Some say it is Competition ONLY, Some say it is (and will) be advertised as SCCA compliant (Like the 2011 GT350NA was). I have heard this from a pretty reliable guy. I am looking for a follow up to this but haven't heard anything back. From what I was told about the GT350, the GT350R is going to be a near Pro GT Class Competition Racecar. As in, a serious racecar. This would thwart any plans Chevy had on luring Ford into a HALO car battle with a Pig Tit. If you want a GT350 equipped with all the fixins' then option a GT350 that way.
No Convertible!!! This could be a way they save some major weight. Taking out that extra 50-70lbs of unneeded reinforcement. Might leave it in though, it could be adding some serious rigidity. The Mustang NEVER had a scalable platform like this...
You see, the GT350 is completely new from the A Pillar up. This means that the actual platform has been developed with interchangeable sub sections. A lot like the new M3/M4. The M4 was developed FIRST and then the car was scaled down. The GT350 could have an All Aluminum Cradle in the front. That is the only one of two reasons vehicles are develop like this. To add in/take out sections for more model flexibility AND, to add/remove sections for greater Global flexibility to take on multiple body styles across multiple platforms. In both situations, it usually saves weight and money initially. It cost more to replace parts long term but saves money in labor time. It's kind of a wash.... Major drawbacks using a Global platform though.
My friends at Camaro6 loves to hear me talk about the Alpha, apparently thePill is all the rage over there.
I will never understand their enthusiasm for a shared platform in this day and age of the automobile. It's 2015 for pities sake, time for a dedicated platform for the Camaro. The Alpha is what they needed in 2003, it's not gonna help you much in this situation. It could be catastrophic long term, especially when they didn't change the general look.
(Cont...)
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