93 Octane Tune on Boosted Motor

[WonderDud]

Sorry. Is there a more appropriate place for me to post this thread? (Newbie Mistake)

Yes, you're correct. I spoke with Gray from Advanced Fuel Dynamics and it doesn't adjust timing. He says that I tune the car for 93 and then this system will allow anything from 93 to race fuel to be run through the vehicle.

It would certainly be convenient since the quality of E85 isn't consistent from the pump. I wonder how much power would be left on the table by going this route as opposed to a dedicated E85 tune.

My car is a street car which I drive on a regular basis, so I don't feed it the good stuff at $15 a gallon. I wouldn't be distraught if I left a few ponies on the table, but a few hundred would have me aching. LOL

Depending on your tuner, a dedicated e85 tune should net some good gains. From what I understand there's much more shoved in down low and some tuners will even keep timing pegged up top regardless of knock which they assume if false because you have plenty of octane with e85+-10 or so. If you can get 70% or better out of an e85 pump you should be good for that. Most flex tunes will not net the same gains as a dedicated but you do get that extra octane safety net which I personally like.

You have a 5.0 motor so your not hurting my feelings posting here lol.

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[Angrey]

You can control boost from 0 up to your pulley limit. So if you’re pulleyed at 20 you can use a boost controller and and set it anywhere from 0-20. If you set it at 10 it will come up to 10 just like it normally does and level off and stay there all the way to redline

I have both the smoothboost and MOTEC boost by gear.

The smooth boost is great, but crude, I'm sure with some sophisticated piggy backs, you could get it to variability by gear. But it's a dial controller, not unlike a bass knob. I currently have mine wired into the pedal position (but you can index the throttle blade as well).

With it indexed to the pedal position, it simply references the range (open to close) according to the % on the dial. So at full dial, 100% bypass is no pedal and 100% closed is WOT. If I were to dial to half way, 100% bypass is no pedal and WOT would be 50% bypass.

I got it before I went with MOTEC not to provide any sort of boost control other than to smooth out the harsh slam of the mechanical/vacuum bypass shutting. With extreme power setups when the bypass slams shut, it's such a huge spike in torque that it makes that transition period herky jerky, especially with a 150 mm throttle blade.

Lots of Mopar guys running the smooth boost to try to feather out the sudden onrush of torque. I suppose you COULD use it to keep out of boost and use it for a 93 tune if you had the tune/map for the reduced fuel flow.

The MOTEC really controls throttle limit by gear, so it's technically not a boost by gear, but that's the indirect result. It simply limits what 100% throttle is for WOT (by gear)

The "inferred" flex tune setups work decently well for how they're limited. Just keep in mind that in order to "reset" (if you don't have a manual input like PCM is featuring) you have to trigger it somehow and the typical solution is to provide a trigger (like ALCH%) where it's a 0 or 1 value based upon a reset triggered by a change in fuel level. In some cases, if you don't fill up ENOUGH, it won't trigger a reset of the computer to start easing into the new fuel value.

 

[Soulless302]

Depending on your tuner, a dedicated e85 tune should net some good gains. From what I understand there's much more shoved in down low and some tuners will even keep timing pegged up top regardless of knock which they assume if false because you have plenty of octane with e85+-10 or so. If you can get 70% or better out of an e85 pump you should be good for that. Most flex tunes will not net the same gains as a dedicated but you do get that extra octane safety net which I personally like.

You have a 5.0 motor so your not hurting my feelings posting here lol.

Yes, I do like that safety net too. Are these types of systems reliable? I've never heard of them before and I don't care to be the guinea pig.

Appreciate it! In my defense, I may have an S197, but it has an S550 heart!
I just googled "The most helpful Mustang forum on the interwebs" and this is where it sent me.

I have both the smoothboost and MOTEC boost by gear.

The smooth boost is great, but crude, I'm sure with some sophisticated piggy backs, you could get it to variability by gear. But it's a dial controller, not unlike a bass knob. I currently have mine wired into the pedal position (but you can index the throttle blade as well).

With it indexed to the pedal position, it simply references the range (open to close) according to the % on the dial. So at full dial, 100% bypass is no pedal and 100% closed is WOT. If I were to dial to half way, 100% bypass is no pedal and WOT would be 50% bypass.

I got it before I went with MOTEC not to provide any sort of boost control other than to smooth out the harsh slam of the mechanical/vacuum bypass shutting. With extreme power setups when the bypass slams shut, it's such a huge spike in torque that it makes that transition period herky jerky, especially with a 150 mm throttle blade.

Lots of Mopar guys running the smooth boost to try to feather out the sudden onrush of torque. I suppose you COULD use it to keep out of boost and use it for a 93 tune if you had the tune/map for the reduced fuel flow.

The MOTEC really controls throttle limit by gear, so it's technically not a boost by gear, but that's the indirect result. It simply limits what 100% throttle is for WOT (by gear)

The "inferred" flex tune setups work decently well for how they're limited. Just keep in mind that in order to "reset" (if you don't have a manual input like PCM is featuring) you have to trigger it somehow and the typical solution is to provide a trigger (like ALCH%) where it's a 0 or 1 value based upon a reset triggered by a change in fuel level. In some cases, if you don't fill up ENOUGH, it won't trigger a reset of the computer to start easing into the new fuel value.

Thank you for all this great information. I'm looking into this Motec controller now.

The flex fuel setups have to be "reset" with each tank? I didn't know there was a need of that. It wouldn't be a big deal, but I find it odd that it doesn't just actively read continuously in the fuel line and make the necessary adjustments without the need for a "reset."

 

[Angrey]

Yes, I do like that safety net too. Are these types of systems reliable? I've never heard of them before and I don't care to be the guinea pig.

Appreciate it! In my defense, I may have an S197, but it has an S550 heart!
I just googled "The most helpful Mustang forum on the interwebs" and this is where it sent me.



Thank you for all this great information. I'm looking into this Motec controller now.

The flex fuel setups have to be "reset" with each tank? I didn't know there was a need of that. It wouldn't be a big deal, but I find it odd that it doesn't just actively read continuously in the fuel line and make the necessary adjustments without the need for a "reset."

A MOTEC setup isn't just expensive, it's choke on your drink expensive. And they don't have setups for every application (nothing yet for the Direct Injection 2018+ cars yet).

Firstly, nearly all "flex fuel" tunes on the market that aren't true flex fuel (but inferred) are for naturally aspirated setups. No current reputable tuners are going to set it up for inferred flex tune on a blower.

True flex fuel uses an ethanol sensor and gives content information to the PCM and that allows it to reference the applicable tables for the fuel quality.

The "inferred" version is just a workaround where the computer ESTIMATES the fuel alcohol content based off data from the knock sensors, 02 sensors, etc. That is what I referenced where typically, you need to fill up enough to trigger a relearn so the PCM starts to ease into the timing again (to try to infer what the change in the fuel quality has been).

As PCMTech pointed out, seems like there's options on the market now for blown setups that involve true flex fuel, but you simply have to select the appropriate tune setting (after observing your flex sensor value). I'd reach out to them and see how much it would be to set you up. It's probably expensive but probably not anywhere near the cost of a true CANBUS setup like MOTEC.

 

[mejohn50]

As PCMTech pointed out, seems like there's options on the market now for blown setups that involve true flex fuel, but you simply have to select the appropriate tune setting (after observing your flex sensor value). I'd reach out to them and see how much it would be to set you up. It's probably expensive but probably not anywhere near the cost of a true CANBUS setup like MOTEC.

You do not have to select the ethanol content with PCMTEC CANbus flex fuel if you have the correct ethanol content sensor and tune. The tune will do it automatically using the PCMTEC custom OS configured for the CANbus ethanol sensor.

The PCMTEC custom OS can be set up with a user-selected ethanol content tune, but to be clear that’s not how their CANbus flex fuel logic works. It’s all automatic in the background when configured properly.

 

[mejohn50]

The flex fuel setups have to be "reset" with each tank? I didn't know there was a need of that. It wouldn't be a big deal, but I find it odd that it doesn't just actively read continuously in the fuel line and make the necessary adjustments without the need for a "reset."

The Ford OEM flex fuel logic automatically starts an ethanol re-learn process after every fuel refill (over a certain threshold). Once certain criteria are met, it’ll lock on to an ethanol value. Every parameter required to set it up properly, even for a boosted application, exists in PCMTEC’s software (for gen 2 and gen 3 coyote PCMs, only 2015-2023 currently supported).

As stated in my post above, PCMTEC has a sensor-based flex fuel system available that auto-adjusts like you said. Though if you’re still running your gen 1 PCM it isn’t supported by PCMTEC.

I’ve tested the OEM logic on a boosted gen 3 coyote and it worked well. I haven’t had as much experience with it as @engineermike though. I’ve also got the PCMTEC CANbus flex fuel system set up on my car and have done some basic testing with it before I had to park my car for the winter. So I have experience tuning and using both systems on my own car.

 

[Angrey]

You do not have to select the ethanol content with PCMTEC CANbus flex fuel if you have the correct ethanol content sensor and tune. The tune will do it automatically using the PCMTEC custom OS configured for the CANbus ethanol sensor.

The PCMTEC custom OS can be set up with a user-selected ethanol content tune, but to be clear that’s not how their CANbus flex fuel logic works. It’s all automatic in the background when configured properly.

That would obviously be preferable, not just from a convenience standpoint, but then it frees up the user selections to be a different set of variables.

I wish PCMtech had been available sooner, I'd have explored it before going with MOTEC. I have no idea price comparison, but the MOTEC is wonderful, but the price is insane. You get a lot, but you pay a lot. Hopefully there's more options for CANBUS and expanded tuning coming to the market.

My previous HP tune we spent hours trying to get the idle right (with a giant TB) and never could get it perfect, we left it at "as good as it can get." With the MOTEC, the idle is perfect. I think most of the tuning options on the table with HPT and others was largely "Take the Ford OE logic and make it user configurable" rather than expanding, correcting, etc into what the system potentially could be. The idle variables for the Ford tune work for their purposes, but when you start introducing all sorts of wild and extreme conditions, it was just way, WAY too complicated (in this case more is less. set the blade angle and make adjustments elsewhere, rather than having 3 or 4 variables all fighting each other to maintain a steady state).

 

[mejohn50]

I wish PCMtech had been available sooner, I'd have explored it before going with MOTEC. I have no idea price comparison, but the MOTEC is wonderful, but the price is insane. You get a lot, but you pay a lot. Hopefully there's more options for CANBUS and expanded tuning coming to the market.

I can’t speak for the actual tuning companies, but with the credits to license the file for custom OS, plus all the ethanol sensor hardware (I went with custom made PTFE lines), and a custom made ethanol sensor bracket I designed and had made, I’m probably about $1000-1200 into my flex fuel setup. Obviously add the tuning company cost if you aren’t self-tuning.

 

[Angrey]

I can’t speak for the actual tuning companies, but with the credits to license the file for custom OS, plus all the ethanol sensor hardware (I went with custom made PTFE lines), and a custom made ethanol sensor bracket I designed and had made, I’m probably about $1000-1200 into my flex fuel setup. Obviously add the tuning company cost if you aren’t self-tuning.

No, I'm referring to the cost of PCMtech vs MOTEC.

I already had a return style fuel system, with the sensor and the module and the bypass fitting on the return side, it cost me about $400 all in to add the ethanol sensor.

I'm referring to how much does it cost to get the CANBUS setup from PCMtech vs MOTEC.

 

[mejohn50]

No, I'm referring to the cost of PCMtech vs MOTEC.

I already had a return style fuel system, with the sensor and the module and the bypass fitting on the return side, it cost me about $400 all in to add the ethanol sensor.

I'm referring to how much does it cost to get the CANBUS setup from PCMtech vs MOTEC.

The fees directly associate with getting access to the PCMTEC custom OS are the credits and tuning software. It costs 10 credits (~400 US dollars) to license an unlicensed file to access custom OS. If you also count purchasing the software, it’s looking like a single user with custom OS access is going to be about $1000, or $2000 for the full workshop package.

Of course, if you’re paying for tuning services you won’t have the costs to get the PCMTEC software but instead the tuning company costs.

 

[Soulless302]

A MOTEC setup isn't just expensive, it's choke on your drink expensive. And they don't have setups for every application (nothing yet for the Direct Injection 2018+ cars yet).

Well, count me out on that. I began looking yesterday, but my work computer blocks their website, so I never saw any pricing.

As stated in my post above, PCMTEC has a sensor-based flex fuel system available that auto-adjusts like you said. Though if you’re still running your gen 1 PCM it isn’t supported by PCMTEC.

Still running the gen 1 PCM? Yes.

Are the gen 2 and 3 PCM's plug and play on the gen 1 cars?

 

[mejohn50]

Still running the gen 1 PCM? Yes.

Are the gen 2 and 3 PCM's plug and play on the gen 1 cars?

Very unlikely. Not impossible to do, but not sure what the whole conversion looks like. I know @zackmd1 is doing some interesting stuff in his build thread. He might have some insight on what it would take to make it work, though he’s converted the whole car to the newer generation electronics if I understand correctly.

 

[Soulless302]

Very unlikely. Not impossible to do, but not sure what the whole conversion looks like. I know @zackmd1 is doing some interesting stuff in his build thread. He might have some insight on what it would take to make it work, though he’s converted the whole car to the newer generation electronics if I understand correctly.

That's what I figured, but I had to ask.

 

[zackmd1]

That's what I figured, but I had to ask.

So Gen 2 is actually “mostly” compatible with Gen 1. You will loose the dash speedometer as Ford changed how the speedometer works between Gen 1 and 2 (in PCM on Gen 1 and in BCM on Gen 2) but you should be able to get most everything else working. Swapping pins for the PCM wouldn’t be too difficult. Would need new engine/trans and battery harness. Engine would need Gen 2 cams and timing components.

 

[Angrey]

The fees directly associate with getting access to the PCMTEC custom OS are the credits and tuning software. It costs 10 credits (~400 US dollars) to license an unlicensed file to access custom OS. If you also count purchasing the software, it’s looking like a single user with custom OS access is going to be about $1000, or $2000 for the full workshop package.

Of course, if you’re paying for tuning services you won’t have the costs to get the PCMTEC software but instead the tuning company costs.

That's just the geek end, is there any hardware, wiring/pinning, harness costs? It sounds like the PCM just overwrites the OE PCM, but I'm guessing the only way to do that WITH sensor inputs is some additional piggy back or add in.

MOTEC completely replaces the OE PCM. So you have the costs of the unit, the firmware, the harness, the installation and eventually the tuning/support.

Unless they've figured out some way to pin/jump in signals from the ethanol sensor to the OE PCM there has to be a secondary unit

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