GM is pulling back on EVs

[K4fxd]

It's what I and many others have been saying all along.

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[jtmat]

Democrats’ electric vehicle boondoggle will run way over budget (msn.com)

“Data confirm that advocates of the IRA greatly understated its costs, and that the bill is a boondoggle, primed to sap still more funds from the already dangerously indebted American public.”

“A recent Goldman Sachs report estimates that the IRA’s green energy subsidies will likely cost taxpayers $1.2 trillion over the next decade. That’s more than three times the Congressional Budget Office’s projected $391 billion.”

“Clean vehicle subsidies are a prime culprit: Although forecasted to cost just $14 billion, they may cost roughly $390 billion, according to analysis from the Brookings Institution.”

“…tax credit to manufacturers for EV battery cells and modules. While the CBO tagged this program at $30.6 billion, the Mercatus Center’s Christine McDaniel explains its true cost could reach $196.5 billion.”

“Consumers who would otherwise buy a cheaper traditional car may now choose a subsidized EV. But such subsidies alter vehicles’ prices, not their costs. The difference will be paid by American taxpayers.”

Hello; Had to comment on this sentence. This is a good way to put what I have been driving at.

“fundamentally ill-considered. “Transportation may be 20 percent of emissions, but cars and vans represent only 8 percent, and 72 percent of these are personal vehicles—which means they sit idle most of the time,” observes Holman W. Jenkins Jr., a member of the Wall Street Journal’s editorial board. “Global society’s personal vehicles may be a majority of cars, but they account for a minority of light-vehicle emissions—about 39 percent, or 3 percent of total emissions,””

Hello; Puts it into perspective doesn’t it. Our personal vehicles are 3% of total emissions.

“if left undistorted by governments, direct market actors toward using scarce resources with maximum efficiency. When governments intervene, businesses often choose less efficient strategies in pursuit of subsidies. This is exactly how the IRA is playing out: The bill incentivizes manufacturers to produce higher-cost EVs to the exclusion of cheaper and otherwise more profitable traditional vehicles.”

This is nothing more than a political piece by The Washington Examiner. Think posting something with "MSN" makes it okay? Baffling.

Didn't you see what happened to the meme thread? This type of stuff is why you have been kicked out a few other threads. Agree or not agree, the forum rules are REALLY clear.

And instead of others saying something, they co-sign.

Next you will join the "Double Standard" thread.

 

[K4fxd]

Looks like a bunch of facts to me.

 

[sk47]

This is nothing more than a political piece by The Washington Examiner. Think posting something with "MSN" makes it okay? Baffling.

Didn't you see what happened to the meme thread? This type of stuff is why you have been kicked out a few other threads. Agree or not agree, the forum rules are REALLY clear.

And instead of others saying something, they co-sign.

Next you will join the "Double Standard" thread.

Hello; A large portion of the "Green energy & BEV agendas" are rooted in mandates and incentives. Mandates and incentives have roots in the structures which govern the way the monies and restrictions are put into being. I tried to quote the bits which explained the cost of these programs since costs will make a difference. Had i posted the information without adding a link to the source the cry against me would be different.

I do not follow your objection to the Washington Examiner or to "MSN". I add the source of the link so readers can see the source of the information and know i did not make it up myself.
Goldmon Sachs, Brookings Institution, Mercatus Center and the Wall Street Journal’s editorial board are cited.

I have lost privilege in one thread only so far. That being the Science is Cancelled thread. I was never told why by a moderator. I have assumed it was because of my stance on natural immunity and vaccine effectiveness. Both of which are proven I was correct in my stance at the time. My voice was silenced in that thread discussion, along with others who questioned the "official" line of the time. Covid was important but in many ways incidental to Mustang owners. These "Green & BEV agenda" issues have a direct and dire impact on Mustang owners. The cost of these programs needs to be discussed.

The large national debt will make a difference to our lives. Adding to that debt, regardless of who does so, risks the entire population. Since early 2020 many trillions have been added to the overall debt with one result being the high inflation, we all face currently.

I do not participate in the meme nor in the double standard threads so do not know of what you refer. I get you do not support my stance on many topics from the way you attack my posts. Somehow having my voice silenced rather than discussing the points appears to be your preference.

 

[jtmat]

Hello; A large portion of the "Green energy & BEV agendas" are rooted in mandates and incentives. Mandates and incentives have roots in the structures which govern the way the monies and restrictions are put into being. I tried to quote the bits which explained the cost of these programs since costs will make a difference. Had i posted the information without adding a link to the source the cry against me would be different.

I do not follow your objection to the Washington Examiner or to "MSN". I add the source of the link so readers can see the source of the information and know i did not make it up myself.
Goldmon Sachs, Brookings Institution, Mercatus Center and the Wall Street Journal’s editorial board are cited.

I have lost privilege in one thread only so far. That being the Science is Cancelled thread. I was never told why by a moderator. I have assumed it was because of my stance on natural immunity and vaccine effectiveness. Both of which are proven I was correct in my stance at the time. My voice was silenced in that thread discussion, along with others who questioned the "official" line of the time. Covid was important but in many ways incidental to Mustang owners. These "Green & BEV agenda" issues have a direct and dire impact on Mustang owners. The cost of these programs needs to be discussed.

The large national debt will make a difference to our lives. Adding to that debt, regardless of who does so, risks the entire population. Since early 2020 many trillions have been added to the overall debt with one result being the high inflation, we all face currently.

I do not participate in the meme nor in the double standard threads so do not know of what you refer. I get you do not support my stance on many topics from the way you attack my posts. Somehow having my voice silenced rather than discussing the points appears to be your preference.

You have been a part of multiple threads shut down over non-sense.

Odd behavior when some people post something that is rife with politics and then seem surprised when mods act.

No one wants to silence you. You mostly say the same stuff over and over to there is nothing to silence. I ignore you most of the time so no biggie.

Would only ask you follow the forum rules before another "ok" thread is shut down. Hopefully that is not too much to ask. If so, carry on!!!

 

[jtmat]

Looks like a bunch of facts to me.

All it takes is one person to decide the facts are not correct and there you go. lol

Not about facts... and definitely not about you.

Not a surprise how the right wing Examiner would pull quotes. Even one they misquoted.... the paper actually says:

The Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) represents the largest federal response to climate change to date. We highlight the key climate provisions and assess the Act’s potential economic impacts. Substantially higher investments in clean energy and electric vehicles imply that fiscal costs may be larger than projected. However, even at the high end, IRA provisions remain cost effective.​

​

Eh, continue to live in your political world.

 

[sk47]

Hello; I just read an article about a power company which apparently operates in Virginia and North Carolina. The article is about the company plans to keep using natural gas and even increase nuclear electricity production.
The company is called Dominion Energy. I could stick to the reasons given which are sensible, but if I provide a link you will use the threat of politics against me because a Name is in the article title.

Thing is some political aspects cannot be divorced from a discussion about mandates and incentives which use tax dollars.

 

[sk47]

All it takes is one person to decide the facts are not correct and there you go. lol

Not about facts... and definitely not about you.

Not a surprise how the right wing Examiner would pull quotes. Even one they misquoted.... the paper actually says:

The Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) represents the largest federal response to climate change to date. We highlight the key climate provisions and assess the Act’s potential economic impacts. Substantially higher investments in clean energy and electric vehicles imply that fiscal costs may be larger than projected. However, even at the high end, IRA provisions remain cost effective.​

​

Eh, continue to live in your political world.

 

[sk47]

California police department transitioning to all electric fleet with purchase of Tesla models (msn.com)
Hello; This is one adventure I would like to follow. Police cruisers have lots of power using radios, computers (additional to those running the car) lights, sirens and such. Often running all shift long with heat and or AC running as well. Then a fast run to some scene with lights blazing. They are in all sorts of weather. Maybe no cold in California??
In other words a very heavy duty cycle. Hope we can find out how this works out. One especially thing of interest will be how they deal during times of general power outages such as after storms or some such when the cars have to be on duty but cannot charge up.

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/gm-trims-back-even-more-170000428.html

You gotta read between the lines here. Looks like GM is losing money on EV's just like ford. Also looks like Stellantis is in the same boat.

 

[K4fxd]

This is one adventure I would like to follow.

Buying 20 cars, probably have 8 or 10 active duty officers.

 

[sk47]

Net-zero by 2050: The most expensive federal program ever (msn.com)

“Last month, the EPA announced new emission standards for cars and light trucks that would essentially force consumers to buy expensive and unreliable electric vehicles instead of vehicles with proven internal combustion engines that better serve their needs. And last year, the Securities and Exchange Commission proposed making publicly traded companies enact net-zero as their overriding corporate purpose.”

Hello; I knew of the EPA new standards but had missed the net-zero as the overriding purpose of the corporation.

“The least expensive way to achieve net-zero is through a carbon tax: a fee charged for every ton of (mostly) carbon dioxide emitted.” …”we can easily calculate the minimum cost of net-zero to households. We tally up all the carbon dioxide emitted, multiply that by the minimum tax necessary, and then divide the total by the number of U.S. households. Contrary to popular myth, corporations cannot be compelled to pay these costs. They will pass costs to customers, employees, suppliers, and shareholders — which means households.”

“According to the Energy Information Administration, 4.9 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide were emitted via the production and use of U.S. carbon-based energy in 2021,”…” The lowest rate that plausibly could achieve net-zero by 2050 is $100 per metric ton (2,205 pounds). Respected organizations say rates as high as $700 per metric ton likely would be required. Taxing every metric ton at these rates means collecting between $490 billion and $3.4 trillion in carbon taxes from households. Every year.”

“There are 122 million households in the United States, so the average cost for each household of a $100 per metric ton tax is about $4,200. That means $12,700 per household at $300 per metric ton and $30,000 per year at $700 per metric ton. These figures equal 6.5%, 20%, and 45% of median U.S. household income. Every year.”

“But tax bills would decline slowly because it would take many years of expensive sacrifices to reduce a household’s carbon footprint seriously. All but the richest households would have to reduce their standard of living dramatically.”

Hello; I think of this as a “do without lifestyle”. Also this has not yet happened, but as the article mentions the idea has been around for many years.

 

[sk47]

Buying 20 cars, probably have 8 or 10 active duty officers.

Hello; That would work. keep half the cars on charge while the others are in use. Wonder if they will save much money?

 

[martinjlm]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/gm-trims-back-even-more-170000428.html

You gotta read between the lines here. Looks like GM is losing money on EV's just like ford. Also looks like Stellantis is in the same boat.

Everybody loses money on EVs until they don’t. That’s the nature of the auto business in general. A few blasts from the past…

2001 LA Times article noting Toyota finally making profit on Prius 4 years after launch

Needless to say, Toyota makes a good profit on Prius now, as well as all the other vehicles using their hybrid systems. Likewise, GM lost money on a per unit basis on Chevrolet Volt for several years before costs were reduced enough to drive profit. Nissan Leaf? Same story.

Tesla had a cash burn rate of on average $2B per quarter over a 2-yr period. For years they offset their losses on vehicles through sales of ZEV credits to automakers that couldn’t meet their EPA/CARB targets. Now Tesla has a profit margin of over $9,500 per vehicle sold. In 2020 that figure was $1,700 and before that they were losing money on every vehicle sold. This is not abnormal for the auto industry.

 

[K4fxd]

Nice way of glossing over all the lost jobs. When the mandates kick in these companies will raise the price of EV's. Then what? more subsidies? Move to inner cities and use public transportation?

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