GM is pulling back on EVs

[sk47]

Electric Vehicles Aren’t the Climate Change Solution we Were Promised (msn.com)

“There are other downsides to the EV revolution that go beyond pollution. Private electric vehicles are expensive to buy at a time when more Americans are below the poverty line than ever. Worse yet, government spending on EV infrastructure has diminished the focus on more wide-reaching mobility solutions.”

“We can reduce tailpipe emissions while giving everyone improved access to mobility and keep our fuel-burning sports cars around for years to come. But if we singularly focus on EVs as a solution to pollution, we risk creating a system so imbalanced that change will no longer be optional.”

Hello; Not really much new in this story. Mainly a different take on things. A bit of a push for more public transportation is one thing. I sorta get the idealized aspect of this but wonder if more such will just become toilets for the homeless in cities. Public transit will be a big city thing is my guess. Not had any passenger trains and no bus stations in my area since the 1960's best as I can recall.

I do agree with the items quoted above. Too narrow a focus on only one path likely will find us way to locked in when it fails either partially or completely. Maybe like jumping out of a functioning airplane to find on the way down the parachute is not working as planned. Too late to change back.

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[sk47]

Experts fear deteriorating parking lots could collapse under the weight of heavy electric vehicles, says report (msn.com)

Hello; Same story but perhaps not so biased? Focus on older car parking structures built long ago before minds were lost.

 

[sk47]

Company devises ingenious plan to use old lithium-ion batteries from broken-down EVs: ‘These batteries work very well’ (msn.com)

Hello; not much new here also. Does mention a system to apparently charge the old EV battery packs in sequence. By that my take is each old pack removed from an EV after it is no longer road useful will be charged to it's capacity then the charge will move to another battery pack.

I see a down the road conflict with the plan without some change in how batteries are made. Best estimates appear to claim there is not enough lithium or maybe cobalt to make enough batteries for all the EV's to come. At the same time a need will be very great for power backup for the grids when it is dark or no wind.
At some point these old battery packs will need to be recycled for the materials in them. My take is they will continue to lose a small percentage of energy storage capacity when used as grid backup same as they did when in the original EV. Maybe some sort of balance will play out as the second life battery packs fall below even practical use in a grid.

Still does not compute if there are not enough raw materials to build all the required batteries. Guess the you private individuals are subjects of the state and the state will use your private EV's as backup for the grid.
Guess the move for us lowly individuals will be to unplug our mandated EV's as soon as they are fully charged. Oh OH. I forget about wireless charging again. Bet there will be wireless charging pads you just park on top of maybe like some phones can be charged.

 

[martinjlm]

Company devises ingenious plan to use old lithium-ion batteries from broken-down EVs: ‘These batteries work very well’ (msn.com)

Hello; not much new here also. Does mention a system to apparently charge the old EV battery packs in sequence. By that my take is each old pack removed from an EV after it is no longer road useful will be charged to it's capacity then the charge will move to another battery pack.

I see a down the road conflict with the plan without some change in how batteries are made. Best estimates appear to claim there is not enough lithium or maybe cobalt to make enough batteries for all the EV's to come. At the same time a need will be very great for power backup for the grids when it is dark or no wind.

Without having some rational assessment of the amount of energy that can be stored compared to how much energy needs to be drawn, this is no more impactful than saying if the weather is cold we might need to turn up the heat, and then have an anxiety attack over whether we’ve got enough coal to handle it.

At some point these old battery packs will need to be recycled for the materials in them. My take is they will continue to lose a small percentage of energy storage capacity when used as grid backup same as they did when in the original EV. Maybe some sort of balance will play out as the second life battery packs fall below even practical use in a grid.

Assumption with zero evidence nor engineering backed detail. Storage has a completely different requirement on a battery than frequent and rapid discharge.

Still does not compute if there are not enough raw materials to build all the required batteries. Guess the you private individuals are subjects of the state and the state will use your private EV's as backup for the grid.
Guess the move for us lowly individuals will be to unplug our mandated EV's as soon as they are fully charged. Oh OH. I forget about wireless charging again. Bet there will be wireless charging pads you just park on top of maybe like some phones can be charged.

Wow… the conspiracy is strong in this one. “They’re coming to get our guns” EV edition. You are correct about one thing though. Wireless chargers for cars are available now and stand a decent chance of becoming more widely available.

Wireless EV Charging

Back on topic…GM is pulling back on EV

GM passes Ford in EV sales. Number 2 behind Tesla
Not looking at all like “pulling back”

 

[K4fxd]

Storage has a completely different requirement on a battery than frequent and rapid discharge.

At nighttime they will discharge, no?

 

[AZlb5.0]

At nighttime they will discharge, no?

I have to agree with @martinjlm on this. While you’re right that they will discharge, the rate of discharge is a lot slower then let’s say when you’re driving. The draw is still a trickle even with a stove/oven dryer heater and so on then stomping the pedal on a 5K lb car trying to merge or over take. Will they still go bad? Of course batteries all batteries end up with cells dying over time that makes them inop. The whole argument I guess is when will that happen and we don’t have enough data yet to compare. I would say we really won’t know for about the next 5-10 yrs the life expectancy of a used vehicle ion/lithium battery turned to home use. Oh and I forgot to add this tad bit. You’ll be rotating battery packs so it won’t be the same one over and over again day in day out. At least I would have 4 or 5 to store energy in meaning I’ll reuse 1 pack every let’s say 5-10 days depending on daily energy use.

 

[K4fxd]

At least I would have 4 or 5 to store energy in meaning I’ll reuse 1 pack every let’s say 5-10 days depending on daily energy use.

Thats a lot of 10K batteries.

I just know my laptop and cell phone use Lithium Ion batteries and after about a year the batteries lose a lot of capacity.

 

[Burkey]

Thats a lot of 10K batteries.

I just know my laptop and cell phone use Lithium Ion batteries and after about a year the batteries lose a lot of capacity.

I suppose most EV manufacturers are offering an 8 year, 160,000km warranty on their batteries out of the goodness of their heart then?
Usually the warranty stipulates that the battery be able to retain 70% of its original capacity over that period.

I think we can agree that a 30% drop over the course of 8 years isn’t quite quite the same as what’s happening with your phone and laptop.

 

[sk47]

I have to agree with @martinjlm on this. While you’re right that they will discharge, the rate of discharge is a lot slower then let’s say when you’re driving. The draw is still a trickle even with a stove/oven dryer heater and so on then stomping the pedal on a 5K lb car trying to merge or over take. Will they still go bad? Of course batteries all batteries end up with cells dying over time that makes them inop. The whole argument I guess is when will that happen and we don’t have enough data yet to compare. I would say we really won’t know for about the next 5-10 yrs the life expectancy of a used vehicle ion/lithium battery turned to home use. Oh and I forgot to add this tad bit. You’ll be rotating battery packs so it won’t be the same one over and over again day in day out. At least I would have 4 or 5 to store energy in meaning I’ll reuse 1 pack every let’s say 5-10 days depending on daily energy use.

Hello; I think you are correct on several points. First I was not referring to the nightly use discharge and next day recharge of the cells. I was figuring just as you say the battery packs will slowly lose charge capacity even as backups. They are warrantied for some number of years to hold a percentage of full charge in EV's. If they fall below 70%, as was mentioned, they are no longer EV road worthy and are taken out of an EV. So, the backup battery packs become energy storage for nighttime or no wind.
Not sure why martinjlm is so picky about the idea that old backup battery packs will not continue to lose charge up percentage. I have a lot of lithium rechargeable batteries and over time they do get to the point of not taking a full charge. AAA's, AA's , C & D cell, even 9V rechargeable batteries. I use these in remotes, flashlights and such. I get a lot of cycles to be sure and it is not demanding use.

Where I was talking about something different was about commercial power companies in the future using old EV batteries for storage. Similar to home use in theory, just a lot more energy needed. The assumption being in the idealized future all fossil fuel power plants are gone and we have only "green" production. No handy natural gas furnace to fire up. Commercial plants will need lots of batteries and they will get some serious use. That is where i foresee a crunch if indeed there is a shortage of rare raw materials to make batteries.

No gripes from me if old battery packs become the go to backup for commercial power plants. I still like the giant flywheel idea spun up to high RPM's. Then the kinetic energy can be tapped at night or low wind periods.

Note - I actually have an idea why martinjlm takes exception to things i post.

 

[martinjlm]

At nighttime they will discharge, no?

If you’re talking about batteries that store energy from solar panels discharging at night, yes, if there is sufficient demand. Since nighttime is typically offpeak, there could be a significant amount of time between actual energy draws.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Hello; I think you are correct on several points. First I was not referring to the nightly use discharge and next day recharge of the cells. I was figuring just as you say the battery packs will slowly lose charge capacity even as backups. They are warrantied for some number of years to hold a percentage of full charge in EV's. If they fall below 70%, as was mentioned, they are no longer EV road worthy and are taken out of an EV. So, the backup battery packs become energy storage for nighttime or no wind.
Not sure why martinjlm is so picky about the idea that old backup battery packs will not continue to lose charge up percentage. I have a lot of lithium rechargeable batteries and over time they do get to the point of not taking a full charge. AAA's, AA's , C & D cell, even 9V rechargeable batteries. I use these in remotes, flashlights and such. I get a lot of cycles to be sure and it is not demanding use.

Where I was talking about something different was about commercial power companies in the future using old EV batteries for storage. Similar to home use in theory, just a lot more energy needed. The assumption being in the idealized future all fossil fuel power plants are gone and we have only "green" production. No handy natural gas furnace to fire up. Commercial plants will need lots of batteries and they will get some serious use. That is where i foresee a crunch if indeed there is a shortage of rare raw materials to make batteries.

No gripes from me if old battery packs become the go to backup for commercial power plants. I still like the giant flywheel idea spun up to high RPM's. Then the kinetic energy can be tapped at night or low wind periods.

Note - I actually have an idea why martinjlm takes exception to things i post.

I see where you’re coming from. I have 0 clue on how that would be tackled. I honestly don’t think that batteries, would be a good, in a setting as you speak off. The number of batteries would be unfathomable. Unless really huge batteries were to be built and then again with the battery technology we have now would it be cost effective and how long would they last with said charges.

 

[martinjlm]

….

Note - I actually have an idea why martinjlm takes exception to things i post.

I hold no secrets. You have but to ask me. PM or open forum. I hold no secrets. I’m sure it is not what you think.

 

[sk47]

Green colonialism is flooding the Pacific Northwest (msn.com)

Hello; Threw tis link in because it mentions "pumped hydro". This is where water is pumped up to a high reservoir when thereis excess energy production auch as day time or high wind. Then when needed the water falls thru a turbine to make power.
There is a story here as well. Someone's OX is getting gored.

 

[sk47]

Aging WV Power Plant Slated to Close, Utilities Propose Keeping It Open (msn.com)

Hello; Not enough information in the short article. The utilities companies want to keep it open and apparently others want to close it. Main argument is there will be costs to keep it running another year. There is something about renewable energy in the story.

I do not think the whole story in told in this article.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Watching Washington Journal this morning. Fellow named Peter Morici on. He made a comment about EV's. As part of comments about the high cost of EV's he pointed this out. If everyone at some point has to buy an EV and they stay expensive as they are now. Also, if the incentives continue to be part of the deal to help with the cost, then he couched it as lots of money printed and more inflation.

My take is it becomes a feedback sort of loop. Trying to make EV's more accessable with incentives to counter the higher costs at an everyone scale will trigger inflation which makes the cost of living go up. My guess is the incentives at that point will not be much help. We save some dollars on the EV purchase, but higher cost of living takes dollars away from us.

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