The gripe thread (Mach 1 vs GT350, GT, etc)

[Kermut]

OK, so I freely admit this thread partially exists because I'm bored and I would much rather be out driving my ordered Mach, which is another story and why we have the order tracking thread, but-

I keep seeing people disparage the Mach as a "over priced parts car", and I wanted to make a rebuttal thread. Not that it doesn't already exist, but again, boredom.

OK, so in the month of August/September, year of our Lord 2021, buying a car is an absolute nightmare, I think on that we can all agree. After spending waayyyy too many hours looking into options on Mustangs, this is what I've found in general for pricing:

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GT350:
- 2016 with lowish mileage- $55k+
- 2017 with lowish mileage- $59k+
- 2018 with lowish mileage- $62k+
- 2019 with lowish mileage- $65k+
- 2020 with lowish mileage- I don't even bother checking, they are all astronomical

Cleary exceptions exist, and every once in awhile I see for example a 2019 listed online for $62k that doesn't have hideous bodywork/mods and a history of 5 owners or a lemon law return. They don't last long.

Mach 1:
- On ordered cars, 2-4% below invoice, ~6-8% below MSRP (figure $52k +)
- Variable ADM from dealers, ranging from $1k ADM markup to insane numbers like MSRP + $10k

GT premium
- New fully loaded GT premium (PP1, Magneride, 401a, AVES), ~$49k assuming you can get 8% below MSRP on orders
- Used cars are inflated similar to the GT350, but I confess I'm not really shopping this segment
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OK, so now that we have somewhat of a baseline on pricing, we can see that a base 2021 Mach 1 is roughly $3k less than a base 2016 GT350, or ~$12k less than a 2019 GT350. Also keep in mind this is cash value, and it's likely going to be a pain to find someone willing to write an auto loan for a 2019 GT350 (much less a 2016) that has a lower interest rate, so you better plan on paying out of pocket.

I'll be comparing to a 2019 GT350, because that is the car I originally intended to buy before everything went insane-

For $12k extra, over the Mach, you get:
- The just amazing sounding voodoo engine
- The custom bodywork and badging of the Shelby
- Rear Brembo's
- ?slightly better handling? This seems disputed by reviewers
- Bragging rights

For $12k less than the 2019 Shelby, you get:
- An engine that isn't notorious for gernading itself, with better low end torque, and a better option for forced induction if you so wish
- A brand new factory warranty
- New digital dash display, updated rear brake lights, mycolor accents
- GT500 rear diffuser / sub frame
- A car that otherwise is mechanically (transmission and handling) essentially a Shelby
- A different (but still good) exhaust note
- More refined handling options that won't shake your car to pieces on bad roads

For the Mach 1 versus the loaded GT premium, the difference of $4k (Mach 1 premium w/ leather seats- $53k), you get
- "Special handling tuning/programming", whatever that means
- GT500 rear diffuser / subframe
- Unique tuned exhaust
- Tremec transmission, assuming you are going that way
- All of the Shelby cooling systems (transmission, diff)
- Shelby/Bullitt air intake and throttle body, plus tuning
- All of the M1 stickers, appearance stuff

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Anyway. There are a handful of good Mach 1 v GT350 comparison videos/articles out there by auto journalists. I'll link a few below. The major complaint there (as on the forums), is that for the MSRP price of a 2021 fully loaded M1 versus the MSRP of a 2020 Shelby GT350, the M1 is found wanting, as the prices are essentially similar around $65k. I have to say, I don't really have a problem with that- I agree that the prices of all of the 2021 year cars are very high, from the crazy increase in cost of the GT PP1 package to the cost of the Mach 1 . The problem is, we don't live in a world where you can purchase a 2020 GT350 at MSRP. If you were so lucky as to buy a GT350 at MSRP or under, congrats, I hate you (j/k. maybe).

The other common refrain I read is that the "Mach is just an overpriced parts car". OK- first, yes, it is a parts car. But it's built from great parts, parts you would have a very difficult time scrounging on your own- this is NOT a car that you could order a few things from Ford performance and then proclaim, "Hey look at my Mach!". Secondly, is it overpriced? Looking at the value of what you get -again, for a MY2021 car- you are getting a shitload of extras for the $4k over the GT premium. I'd also point out that if you are comparing the 2021 M1 to a 2020 GT PP2, congrats. You can't buy a PP2 for that cost anymore.

Anyway that's the end of my rant thread, feel free to chime in. It'll help kill the time to when my car is (hopefully?) actually built.

M1/Shelby reviews and comparisons:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-ford-mustang-mach-1-first-test-review/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36030144/2021-ford-mustang-mach-1-drive/

https://www.motortrend.com/features/ford-mustang-mach-1-shelby-gt350-gt500-test-data/
https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/ford/mustang-mach-1

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[dhborden]

I went from my 2015 GT Premium w/50th APP M6, with PowerPack 2 (basically up to Bullitt engine) to the Mach 1, and continue to enjoy it EVERY time I drive it -- even in pouring rain like two days ago here in New England. While I respect Shelby's, I never wanted one. I couldn't see paying that much extra for what I would rarely if ever use, unless I chose to track it. I took the 2015 to HPDE twice and enjoyed it immensely, and realize while I love driving on the track, I have no desire to race against anyone other than myself.
Some will challenge this as "why did you get a Mach 1 then?" Primary reason: my first car was a '69 Mach 1, 351W, 2bbl, auto. So choosing a Mach 1 as my (probably) last gas-powered car only made sense. Once I had the car in my hands for a few weeks, I went to the Ford Performance 2-day school (pre-Mach 1 Track Attack), which solidified for me that the Mach 1 (A10, non-HP) was the right car. The quickness and speed I remain very mindful about since I don't want to scare my passengers or other drivers. The handling makes every winding road fun. And the attention it gets (there still aren't all that many on the road and I have not yet seen another one in with wild except at Carlisle Ford Nationals!!) is fun and gives me a chance to meet new people -- ranging from a 50-60 y/o Maserati driver who admired it and said "be careful with that" to the 20-something skateboarder who yelled out "that's a rad car, dude, my dream car!"
So your rant is dead-on. Could we buy something older and build it to the Mach 1 performance? In most performance aspects, yes. Could we do it as a package for the same as the Mach 1 costs new? Probably not. Could we go with a Shelby and be as happy? Maybe, if that's what you want to do. Bottom line is that the value is in the eyes of the beholder and in this case, this car is worth every penny I paid (no ADM, but I ordered mine on the second day ordering opened in 2020!) The only thing I might have done differently is hold onto my 2015 a few months longer because clearly it is significantly worth more now than it was two months ago when I sold it. Even so, I hope someone else is enjoying it as much as we did for the five years we owned it.
As my wife (not a car person) learned the first time we took a trip in the 2015, Mustang is "a thing" and we should all try to share the joy in our cars, and not carp about the differences.
Rant over. Out.

 

[PBM457]

I think the Mach 1 is an undervalued car at the moment. it’s a lot more fun to drive than the spec sheet shows. For those that call it a parts bin car, I’m fine with it. I like my mutt.

 

[Mikepol2]

Yeah so this comparison has consumed the past 6-ish months of my life...

I've been oh-so-close to looking at GT350's while waiting for the Mach 1, but a couple things have always stopped me. I rented a GT350 in Las Vegas and blasted around in the desert at speeds up to triple digits. Main impression was that it's waaaaay too underpowered below 4000 rpm. And although it sounds good, so does the Mach 1, and in fact I prefer the lower pitch of the M1. But most of all, I simply do NOT understand the way people lose their minds over the fact that it has a redline that's 750 higher than a Coyote. Who cares!!! You don't hear people going ape shit over the fact that the Coyote has a higher redline than a Camaro! Honestly I think fans worship it so much that folks who haven't made up their minds go along with it just because everyone else says that's what you're supposed to like. I'm not saying 8250 is bad - it's just different. Or rather, different for cars in this price range. It's often mentioned that FPC engines are normally only found in exotics or supercars. Well pretty soon it's also going to be in the C8 Z06, with an even higher redline:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36999694/2023-c8-corvette-z06/

If you like it, great! But I just could never understand the hype. Seems to me if it was that advantageous of a design, it would be available in a lot more vehicles.

Anytime I get the itch to test drive and consider buying a GT350, I watch the Stangmode video posted above, where the GT350 owner says he wishes the GT350 had rev matching and the digital dash, how much more comfortable the Mach 1 is, and how noticeable the Mach 1's higher low-end torque is. Then I watch the video my wife made of me test driving the GT350 and listen to my own personal comments.

Again, hey if you like the GT350, great! Some people like olives on their pizza and some don't. And if someone gave me one.... I'd probably sell it and use the money for the Mach 1.

 

[sakman84]

Despite being Mustangs all three are different cars, and they feel different driving them, in fact I was surprised at just how differently they all feel. A spec sheet doesn't always translate into feel and the realities of driving one, they certainly never reflect the realities of owning one. Don't get too hung up on the spec sheet. They each are excellent tools at filling their purposes, so you really should be buying one based on what you will actually end up using it for. I'm assuming this is daily driver, or car you will drive 80% of the time. New or very near new car purchase. Shelby little more used, noted....

GT350
The Shelby GT350 is the most track focused, to the point where I wouldn't want to drive it everyday in traffic on crap roads. The suspension is firm and the torque curves and power band are way more suited to track driving than street use. I would only get this car if I was tracking 5-6+ times a year and if I had a high tolerance for stiff ride, to me the GT350 would be the most fatiguing to drive on the street. Consumable and gas costs going to be higher on this bad boy too. After all its a one off engine design and performance masterpiece of FP 5.2L! Great to drive, a wonderful visceral sensory experience that looses a lot of luster on public roads on the daily. The reliability comes into play for me and my budget, this is different for everyone. If you don't track at all, I don't see a lot of value in the purchase, you are buying a track tool and not using it, that doesn't make sense. This is a track car you can drive home and look damn good doing it.

GT and GT PP
On the other end of the spectrum is the GT (including PP cars for which I will explain below). This model is best suited for daily driving and offers a good value IF you don't stack it with 50K in options, yes you can actually hit 50K now in options on the GT, this ends up being a poor value proposition. I wouldn't do this, if you are approaching near 50K on your purchase seriously look at the Mach 1 especially if you track at all. The GT has always been underequipped for track duty, including the PP cars. You NEED the diff cooler, nothing is worse than a whole track day ruined because you are pitting after two hot laps and you are just getting into the grove of things. This problem goes back to the S197 and the magazines even pointed it out, understand the mags are loathe to ever specifically call out a deficiency like that as harshly as they did. I hate this being the case but it is the truth PP GTs were never sufficiently equipped for tracking, even worse is the price on the PP option has increased steadily in price to a ridiculous level now, what is it 6K and no diff cooler? GT PP has got you covered on spirited driving , equipped with magneride and you got a more comfortable car. It could be placebo, but to me the M1 with magneride feels more complaint on bad pavement, perhaps the tuning really has evolved I don't know.
Finally the MT82D4 in the GT, the ratios are too tall IMO, the S197 had better ratios. Additionally the hit or miss QA/QC on the MT82 is a real thing, if you track, the Mach 1 is the way to go, real cooling plus the Tremec has better ratios for the street and is a better transmission. The aero goodies will probably help at track too. There was a time where the differential in price between the GT PP and the M1 would be very large and I could understand guys going GT, now if you get a PP car nowadays its going be within spitting distance pricewise of M1, you really have to weigh how much track time you will do for it to be worth upgrading, the M1 parts bin or not, is the better car than the GT or GT PP if you track, its more expensive but is a better value buy if tracking. It simply has the track endurance PPs don't, it has the rarity, and I think its more comfortable in "normal" mode than the GT PP I drove, plus the better ratio transmission. It consumes more gas though. Boil this down, regular GTs if you don't track but want the V8 and a damn cool fun car even in base form. PP if you do a lot of spirited driving, this is the worst "bang for buck" option now though since Ford raising price on PP cars. No matter what get magneride, worth every penny in my book.

Mach 1
"Parts bin special", people say it like a bad thing. Totally wrong way to look at it. Anyone in engineering knows its a great approach to take proven parts and modules and equip them on a car, especially a chassis near the end of its production run with kinks worked out. Think P51 Mustang fighter plane. A good low drag body and maneuverable airplane, a good base design to start with, then they paired it with the proven Rolls Royce Merlin engine (packard built versions in USA) and you had a real legend! The merlin provided better higher altitude performance that its original Allison engine was ill equipped for. The Merlin makes much better power across a wider spread of altitudes, and in air combat that little bit more made the difference.
Ford picked the right parts, this car is a fantastic blend of the livability of the GT, proven track parts, and long term engine reliability in the 5.0 Coyote. It may not have everything that people were hoping it would have, but when Ford said they wanted to make the most capable 5.0L Mustang, I think they met that goal. I have not track driven it yet. On the street it feels different than the other two cars, I'm really impressed by how comfortable it is, especially with cooled seats and (non recaro), and the magneride. It soaks up bumps superbly on shit pavement for this class of car. It doesn't beat you up like the Shelby will, and I could easily do many hours in this car without being tired or sore. If you want more performance you can dial it up with the hit of a switch. The difference between "normal" and "sport +" is noticeable immediately. This is a better car to drive on the street than the Shelby, more comfortable, less gas, and a more useful powerband, superb braking. This does not mean its better than the Shelby, just better for its purpose, a car you can drive everyday and then go to the track. I'm amazed the cars feel this different, some will say they really don't but I just straight disagree here, on some differences it isn't even that subtle, sure on some things its small, but its still different! The M1 was the right choice for me, glad I walked away on two Mustang GT PP deals, the Shelby was just too much car for me for daily use, amazing car but not for me based on how I would have to utilize it. Keep in mind I got the M1 for under MSRP.

Don't buy a car because of magazine measurable or a spec sheet, it doesn't always translate into more fun or a better car despite the measurables. Always remember the vast majority of us are not Randy Probst. Buy the one that will best fulfill YOUR purpose, not mine or anybody else's.

Good luck, have fun with it, and I hope your choice ends up being the right one for you!

Long post but I'm on a long boring 11hr shift.

 

[luc]

Interesting thread. I had a itch to get a new track car to replace my 17 GtPP.
No real reason, just wanting something new I guess
I paid new $31k for my pp and have another $5K in it for the following upgrades:
Power pack 2
Racing seat and harness
18x11 wheels
Ford racing track suspension kilt
Harrop oil cooler
Camber plates
So, all together a bit over $36K
The car is very fast, PP2 are 465hp and 430 + torque and I have no differential issue after changing to 75/140 and wrapping the exhaust
I usually keep up or pass 350 and 350r
The 17 Mt 82 work just fine and the ratios are good
I blew 2 factory clutches and am on my second (warranted) engine. Cylinder 8 issue at 20k miles
A friend of mine with the exact same car is going to be on his 4th engine, yes no kidding, and another friend is on his 2nd engine on his 350R and is in need of a new tranny
So, anyhow, I looked at Mach1 base with handling package and it’s basically $60k for at car that will need some modifications, mostly suspension, racing seat, harness, etc to be about as fast than my current PP car
Obviously that don’t make any sense so I’m not doing it
That say I love the Mach 1 but in this market all cars are way overpriced

 

[ICU812]

They are all overpriced, Buy what you want and drive it.
Keeping miles off them is like, not banging your wife /gf so the next guy gets a low mileage ride.

 

[Carbide]

Lol. Hate me. I got my 2020 GT350 for MSRP.

 

[luc]

They are all overpriced, Buy what you want and drive it.
Keeping miles off them is like, not banging your wife /gf so the next guy gets a low mileage ride.

In this market financing a car is a sure recipe to be upside down….
Not sure why you made the comments about keeping the miles off?
And frankly your analogy with wife/gf is pretty crass

 

[shogun32]

"Parts bin special", people say it like a bad thing. Totally wrong way to look at it. Anyone in engineering knows its a great approach to take proven parts and modules and equip them on a car, especially a chassis near the end of its production run with kinks worked out.

the issue isn't "parts bin special" it's "a parts bin special has no business costing as much as a Shelby". But there's that long "M1 is a rip-off" thread for those wishing to pursue that line of thought.

 

[ICU812]

In this market financing a car is a sure recipe to be upside down….
Not sure why you made the comments about keeping the miles off?
And frankly your analogy with wife/gf is pretty crass

Because the only way they'll hold value is low miles. And way Too many owners even on here worry about resale value.
I don't know about you, but I don't buy a vehicle to think, nor worry what I'll get if and when I get bored with it and sell.
I buy it to drive and enjoy.
My Analogy is fact. nothing more.

 

[wingnutt]

long story short…since not GT350 is no longer available new, and the prices of same used are astronomical, nobody will give you any crap over buying an M1

 

[Mikepol2]

...has no business costing as much as a Shelby

...or $5-10K more than a 1LE. I'm paying it but am not happy about it.

 

[sakman84]

the issue isn't "parts bin special" it's "a parts bin special has no business costing as much as a Shelby". But there's that long "M1 is a rip-off" thread for those wishing to pursue that line of thought.

Fair point. The prices have been climbing steadily on all Mustangs, none of them should be as prices as high as they are. You could argue Shelby at MSRP is a great bang for buck. When the GT can hit 50K, yep we blew right past over priced mark and kept going!

 

[shogun32]

You could argue Shelby at MSRP is a great bang for buck.

there were no less than 5 GT350R being offered for $7000 below MSRP in NoVA back in 2019. I should have bought one had I knowed how this was going to play out. I just couldn't swallow 65,000 for a bloody Mustang.

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