Concrete GT
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Top Gear claims GT500 is the best muscle car you can buy
L8APEX
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Didn't that GT500 have Michigan Manufacturer plates?
Concrete GT
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See edited post.....and no I don't think it had any.
ZRacerLE
Well-Known Member
There needs to be another term for these cars. Something along the lines of SUPER muscle car. For the same reason we call super cars, super cars. This mustang runs with gt3rs's. It's very different.
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bluebeastsrt
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Im over 50 also. Your wrong. Your age has nothing to do with your opinion. Ive met a lot of millennials that are just as misguided as you.
OH5GT 2 S550
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I'm sure you dont speak for muscle cars everywhere!!!
IceAge
Well-Known Member
It’s a good conversation here and I like many feel the Term Muscle Car for the Mustang doesn’t seem to fit even though I even mention this as well. But if you read the Wikipedia definition of Muscle Car the Mustang is referenced as a Modern Day Muscle car as well as the original Pony car.
The few muscle cars remaining in production by the mid-1990s included the Ford Mustang,[66][67] Chevrolet Camaro,[68][69] and Pontiac Firebird.[70][71]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car
The few muscle cars remaining in production by the mid-1990s included the Ford Mustang,[66][67] Chevrolet Camaro,[68][69] and Pontiac Firebird.[70][71]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car
V00D00
Well-Known Member
Your wrong. Muscle= American made, affordable power in a coupe
Id love to hear the mental gymnastics, yet again, to know how the charger is, but Camaro and mustang are not. This should be good lol
Classic Lover
Well-Known Member
The charger is not a muscle car, no four door is. Also not all Muscle cars have been American. Australia made some back in the day, however for the most part you are right it’s an American at least in the fact that American invented the muscle car.
How about a little history lesson. I will use MC for muscle car.
The Ford Mustang was launched in 1964 and became its own kind of car, the term pony car was born and the mustang is pointed to as the father of pony cars. The cuda was rolled out a few weeks before the mustang and as such it can kind of claim to be the first pony car. That being said go look at pics of the 1965 cuda and mustang and you can see why one took off and the other didn’t.
I have seen a lot of people online claiming the mustang launched the MC war and was the first MC. This is 100% false, the mustang launched the pony car war not the MC war. The Camaro, Challenger, Cuda, Firebird, and some others were all fighters in the pony car market. Muscle cars go back a lot farther than pony cars and there is no one car people point to as the muscle car that started a crazy blow up like the mustang did. The GTO was one of the first but some came before that, the Chevy Impala, Chrysler 300, and Plymouth Fury. The point is that there is a difference between MC and pony cars. You have to understand that Ford was not building a MC with the mustang. The mustang has never been a MC. True the late 60s went muscle crazy and dropped big block V8s into pony cars, however the car was still made much more for sporty driving and Shelby’s use of the mustang for track racing proves this. Muscle cars and pony cars were not built on the same platform. MC are too big to be road racers. MC raced in NASCAR, pony cars did road racing. A good rule of thumb is 110 in and under wheelbases are sports or pony cars. I’m sure there is some exception, but it’s a good rule. The mustang wheelbase is 107” the Challenger is 116” the difference between a pony or a muscle car.
How about a little history lesson. I will use MC for muscle car.
The Ford Mustang was launched in 1964 and became its own kind of car, the term pony car was born and the mustang is pointed to as the father of pony cars. The cuda was rolled out a few weeks before the mustang and as such it can kind of claim to be the first pony car. That being said go look at pics of the 1965 cuda and mustang and you can see why one took off and the other didn’t.
I have seen a lot of people online claiming the mustang launched the MC war and was the first MC. This is 100% false, the mustang launched the pony car war not the MC war. The Camaro, Challenger, Cuda, Firebird, and some others were all fighters in the pony car market. Muscle cars go back a lot farther than pony cars and there is no one car people point to as the muscle car that started a crazy blow up like the mustang did. The GTO was one of the first but some came before that, the Chevy Impala, Chrysler 300, and Plymouth Fury. The point is that there is a difference between MC and pony cars. You have to understand that Ford was not building a MC with the mustang. The mustang has never been a MC. True the late 60s went muscle crazy and dropped big block V8s into pony cars, however the car was still made much more for sporty driving and Shelby’s use of the mustang for track racing proves this. Muscle cars and pony cars were not built on the same platform. MC are too big to be road racers. MC raced in NASCAR, pony cars did road racing. A good rule of thumb is 110 in and under wheelbases are sports or pony cars. I’m sure there is some exception, but it’s a good rule. The mustang wheelbase is 107” the Challenger is 116” the difference between a pony or a muscle car.
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Classic Lover
Well-Known Member
Here is the best article I have ever found on the difference between muscle cars and pony car. This old timer goes a little farther than I would and says muscle cars must have big V8s I think a larger V8 is fine to be called a MC, obviously a 200 inch V8 isn’t big enough. Have a read.
Me: “What kind of car are you interested in?”
Them: “A Muscle Car. Like a 'Cuda, Challenger, Firebird, or Camaro. I would even consider a Mustang or an AMX.”
Me: “But those are not Muscle Cars.”
Them: “Oh yeah. I meant an AAR 'Cuda, or a Challenger T/A, or a Firebird Trans-Am, or a Camaro Z-28, or a Mustang Mach I.”
Me: “I understand. But those are not Muscle Cars. They’re Pony Cars.”
I have this conversation on a daily basis. I used to let this misconception go by without saying anything, but lately I feel the need to set things straight. Maybe I’m getting curmudgeonly in my old age.
Suppose They Gave a War and Nobody Came? was a 1970 movie starring Ernest Borgnine, Tony Curtis, Brian Keith and Suzanne Pleshette. But about 5 ½ years earlier, Ford fired the first shot in what was to become known as the Pony Car Wars. And GM and Chrysler did come. They came with the Firebird, Camaro, Barracuda, and a bit later the Challenger. You can’t come to a Pony Car War with a Muscle Car. So therefore, they must be Pony Cars.
This may sound a bit as if I’m playing on semantics. But I’m not. Since neither Pony Car or Muscle Car is likely to appear in the Oxford English Dictionary, I went to Wikipedia, and they seem to have gotten it right. Here is how they define Pony Car: “An American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964. The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image.” And here is how they define Muscle Car: “A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers.” Both definitions go on to expand on the intended use of the cars, but these definitions get to the heart of the matter. A Pony Car is small, and a Muscle Car is somewhere between mid-size and full size.
It is important to note that the definition of Pony Car does not include any mention of engine size, whereas the definition of Muscle Car specifically mandates not only a V-8 engine, but a “large V-8 engine.”
Now we have a fairly good idea of what constitutes a Pony Car, as well as some examples. So what are some examples of Muscle Cars? This is harder to exemplify, because there is no universally accepted car that started the Muscle Car Wars, and therefore no baseline. In fact, I don’t believe the term even existed until long after the last Muscle Car rolled off the assembly line. This list is open to interpretation, and therefore much longer. It raises more questions than it answers.
Is GM’s Chevelle SS a Muscle Car? It is a powerful mid-size car, but it was offered with a “small block,” so I would argue that some are and some aren’t. Same with the Oldsmobile 442, the Buick GS, and the Pontiac GTO.
Chrysler made it a bit easier with some of their mid-size cars. You could buy a Charger, Belvedere, Coronet or Satellite with a “big block” or a “small block” but if you wanted to remove all doubt as to whether you were buying a Muscle Car, all you had to do was order a Road Runner or GTX.
As with Chrysler, Ford also offered a mixed bag. You could order a Torino, Galaxie, Marauder or Cyclone with a “big block” or a “small block.” But check the box for a Cyclone Spoiler, Torino Talladega, or Cobra and there was little doubt that years later your car would be called a Muscle Car.
So far, most of the cars that we’ve mentioned in our discussion of Muscle Cars are generally accepted as mid-size performance cars, even if not Muscle Cars.
I think that it’s the full size cars that are the most interesting. It really doesn’t matter which manufacturer they came from. It could be a Catalina, Impala, Starfire, Wildcat, New Yorker, Polara, Galaxie, LTD, Monterey, Marauder, or any other car that’s typically thought of as a large family size people-mover.
You can’t help but wonder what was going through the mind of someone who walked into the showroom, looked at one of these full-size cars and said “I’ll take one of those. Oh, and stick in that monster engine with the dual-quads. And please leave out the automatic transmission and put in a 4-speed…with a Posi. Radio and heater? I don’t need no stinkin’ radio and heater. Leave them out. I also don’t need hub caps. Put on those little center caps.”
Cars that left the factory like this are some of the most coveted and collectible of all Muscle Cars. Probably because by anyone’s definition, they are Muscle Cars.
Me: “What kind of car are you interested in?”
Them: “A Muscle Car. Like a 'Cuda, Challenger, Firebird, or Camaro. I would even consider a Mustang or an AMX.”
Me: “But those are not Muscle Cars.”
Them: “Oh yeah. I meant an AAR 'Cuda, or a Challenger T/A, or a Firebird Trans-Am, or a Camaro Z-28, or a Mustang Mach I.”
Me: “I understand. But those are not Muscle Cars. They’re Pony Cars.”
I have this conversation on a daily basis. I used to let this misconception go by without saying anything, but lately I feel the need to set things straight. Maybe I’m getting curmudgeonly in my old age.
Suppose They Gave a War and Nobody Came? was a 1970 movie starring Ernest Borgnine, Tony Curtis, Brian Keith and Suzanne Pleshette. But about 5 ½ years earlier, Ford fired the first shot in what was to become known as the Pony Car Wars. And GM and Chrysler did come. They came with the Firebird, Camaro, Barracuda, and a bit later the Challenger. You can’t come to a Pony Car War with a Muscle Car. So therefore, they must be Pony Cars.
This may sound a bit as if I’m playing on semantics. But I’m not. Since neither Pony Car or Muscle Car is likely to appear in the Oxford English Dictionary, I went to Wikipedia, and they seem to have gotten it right. Here is how they define Pony Car: “An American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964. The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image.” And here is how they define Muscle Car: “A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers.” Both definitions go on to expand on the intended use of the cars, but these definitions get to the heart of the matter. A Pony Car is small, and a Muscle Car is somewhere between mid-size and full size.
It is important to note that the definition of Pony Car does not include any mention of engine size, whereas the definition of Muscle Car specifically mandates not only a V-8 engine, but a “large V-8 engine.”
Now we have a fairly good idea of what constitutes a Pony Car, as well as some examples. So what are some examples of Muscle Cars? This is harder to exemplify, because there is no universally accepted car that started the Muscle Car Wars, and therefore no baseline. In fact, I don’t believe the term even existed until long after the last Muscle Car rolled off the assembly line. This list is open to interpretation, and therefore much longer. It raises more questions than it answers.
Is GM’s Chevelle SS a Muscle Car? It is a powerful mid-size car, but it was offered with a “small block,” so I would argue that some are and some aren’t. Same with the Oldsmobile 442, the Buick GS, and the Pontiac GTO.
Chrysler made it a bit easier with some of their mid-size cars. You could buy a Charger, Belvedere, Coronet or Satellite with a “big block” or a “small block” but if you wanted to remove all doubt as to whether you were buying a Muscle Car, all you had to do was order a Road Runner or GTX.
As with Chrysler, Ford also offered a mixed bag. You could order a Torino, Galaxie, Marauder or Cyclone with a “big block” or a “small block.” But check the box for a Cyclone Spoiler, Torino Talladega, or Cobra and there was little doubt that years later your car would be called a Muscle Car.
So far, most of the cars that we’ve mentioned in our discussion of Muscle Cars are generally accepted as mid-size performance cars, even if not Muscle Cars.
I think that it’s the full size cars that are the most interesting. It really doesn’t matter which manufacturer they came from. It could be a Catalina, Impala, Starfire, Wildcat, New Yorker, Polara, Galaxie, LTD, Monterey, Marauder, or any other car that’s typically thought of as a large family size people-mover.
You can’t help but wonder what was going through the mind of someone who walked into the showroom, looked at one of these full-size cars and said “I’ll take one of those. Oh, and stick in that monster engine with the dual-quads. And please leave out the automatic transmission and put in a 4-speed…with a Posi. Radio and heater? I don’t need no stinkin’ radio and heater. Leave them out. I also don’t need hub caps. Put on those little center caps.”
Cars that left the factory like this are some of the most coveted and collectible of all Muscle Cars. Probably because by anyone’s definition, they are Muscle Cars.
Rocket403
Active Member
The Olds Rocket 88 J2 was the 1st Muscle Car
https://www.musclecarfan.com/oldsmobile-rocket-88-the-worlds-first-muscle-car/
https://www.musclecarfan.com/oldsmobile-rocket-88-the-worlds-first-muscle-car/
Classic Lover
Well-Known Member
I have read that and yes it is a good starting point. The 1964 GTO is in many ways the mustang of muscle cars, launching a crazy power war for quite awhile.
Rocket403
Active Member
Camaro and Mustang are small Pony Cars that had straddled both Pony Cars and Muscle Cars in the 60's and some of the 70's the term Muscle Car had disappeared from Current Car culture when GM stopped production of the Monte SS, 442 and GN in 87. During the 90's and 2000's there was no mention of Muscle Cars until Dodge brought back the Challenger, it being bigger than the Mustang and Camaro the Muscle Car term has returned in order to compare the 3. Only the Challenger is a Muscle Car.
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