CA Emissions Standards to be revoked

[Hack]

Wow, surprised there wasn’t a peep about this on this site anywhere!

So, it seems the current Administration is revoking California’s Authority and ability to set vehicle emission standards!

Discuss... and don’t destroy the thread by bringing in the political side into the mix...

What do the Cali folks think about this, because if that goes through, it will allow you folks to mod, mod, mod without the worry of the harsh restrictions that were always in place.

Read about it:
https://www.fordnxt.com/news/trump-administration-revokes-californias-emissions-authority/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/climate/trump-california-emissions-waiver.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...th-california-about-auto-emissions-standards/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-vehicle-emission-rules-sources-idUSKBN1W224L

I didn't post about it because I assume there will be a legal battle - possibly extending into the next century - before this really gets finalized.

It's hard to discuss this without bringing up politics also.

Frankly I believe that emissions standards should be rolled back to 90s levels, along with CAFE standards. And states like CA - really all states - should focus on preventing people from modifying their cars in ways that defeat emissions control devices.

Yes I enjoy performance vehicles, but I don't build vehicles without catalytic converters and I don't modify in any other way to defeat emissions control on my cars. Mods are great, but not those mods that defeat cats (my opinion). I'm not a believer in global warming/climate change whatever they have decided to call it this week, but smog and pollution are real. Removing cats from a car is like throwing my garbage in the street. I won't do it and I don't think anyone else should, either. I hope people that do stuff like this get caught.

Probably the best use of inspection is to inspect performance and old vehicles more. Don't inspect new Toyota Camrys - inspect the Mustangs, Camaros, etc. Check diesel vehicles like school buses, city buses, older pickups! Some of them are terrible. Frankly, I'd like to see diesel go away completely if it were practical to do that.

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[BlackandBlue]

Some people, some of you included, don't wake up and drive to work with a brown cloud in your face and over your city. Some of you do.

Those Horrible California and Colorado and Arizona regulations on emissions have made it so that Denver and Phoenix and LA are not as bad as they were 35 years ago, to the point you can see it.

I do know, I was there. Not to say that it's perfect, keep working on it.

The problem with the regulations now is it’s over .01% vs .001%

Car are hundreds of times cleaner than they were in the past. Going from 10% to 1% makes a huge difference. Going from .01% to .001% makes very little difference.

The problem I have with the California regulations is not that they don’t have a good goal in mind, it’s the diminishing returns associated with shifting another decimal point. While it looks good on paper the actual affect is very small while the cost start getting extremely high.

Euro 6 is a good example. More directed towards diesel witch I completely agree with but gasoline doesn’t put out nearly as terrible particles as diesel.

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

All I will add is that anyone who thinks fewer emission controls is a good thing did not visit places like San Jose or Los Angeles in the 60's and 70's.

I hope you like wearing a gas mask, because that's how toxic the air in those cities was before California seized control of it's own destiny.

While the inability to mod my car like most of the rest of the country irritates me, the irritation is inconsequential compared to the real irritation caused to my eyes, sinuses, and lungs by the former air quality in those cities.

This is one case where I hope The President does not get his way.

Like it or not, EGR, catalytic converters, and air injection are good for your health!

 

[Coolmanfoo]

I didn't post about it because I assume there will be a legal battle - possibly extending into the next century - before this really gets finalized.

It's hard to discuss this without bringing up politics also.

Frankly I believe that emissions standards should be rolled back to 90s levels, along with CAFE standards. And states like CA - really all states - should focus on preventing people from modifying their cars in ways that defeat emissions control devices.

Yes I enjoy performance vehicles, but I don't build vehicles without catalytic converters and I don't modify in any other way to defeat emissions control on my cars. Mods are great, but not those mods that defeat cats (my opinion). I'm not a believer in global warming/climate change whatever they have decided to call it this week, but smog and pollution are real. Removing cats from a car is like throwing my garbage in the street. I won't do it and I don't think anyone else should, either. I hope people that do stuff like this get caught.

Probably the best use of inspection is to inspect performance and old vehicles more. Don't inspect new Toyota Camrys - inspect the Mustangs, Camaros, etc. Check diesel vehicles like school buses, city buses, older pickups! Some of them are terrible. Frankly, I'd like to see diesel go away completely if it were practical to do that.

Yeah you're so right about the legal battle. The fact of the matter is this is irrelevant news. By the time the legal battle wraps up a democrat will have replaced trump in the White House and will return the waiver.

Good ole American politics. 4 years at a time

 

[Devil5oh]

OK, so here we are;

Cobra Jet NJ
BmacIL IL
Devil5oh AZ
CB18 PA
NoVaGT VI
gameovergt FL (?)
Zelek TX
Houston Kid TX
EBM NC
Blackand Blue Southeast (somewhere)
IronG NJ
Bikeman315 SC

GregP27 CA
torqued CA
Coolmanfoo CA

We need to hear from more of our CA brothers and sisters to get their opinions. Heck, it's their state.

I actually live in CA, im here in AZ for college so I get to see both sides of the issue. The fact that I drive in phoenix being as loud as I want and not recieve an exhaust ticket for modified exhaust by Phoenix PD is lovely. Cant say the same when driving in LA.

 

[Shifting_Gears]

There’s plenty of fast cars in CA with the existing laws.

Stripping emissions laws may make modding a car less illegal and restrictive but the strict laws surrounding street racing, speeding, etc. won’t change. It’s a drop of water in the bucket for a car enthusiast.

This is a political power move and not really a win for the enthusiast community. A bigger win would be access to 93 octane.

There’s truly too many people packed into the big cities of CA. I don’t side with repealing the law. What’s better for the small amount of enthusiasts is worse for the overall population. The law is designed to keep emissions standards high and defunct cars from rolling around emitting excess pollutants.

While removing restrictions on vehicle emissions isn’t going to change things overnight, it adds up to make a difference. Imagine the next move is to reduce smog and clean air requirements for manufacturing. It wouldn’t make sense.

With that being said, regulations would still be held at the federal standards. It wouldn’t now be legal to go catless. That’s illegal in all states. Vehicles will still conform to federal standards. Some states don’t have vehicle inspections, others don’t care about enforcement, some will fail you over a violation.

 

[Hack]

All I will add is that anyone who thinks fewer emission controls is a good thing did not visit places like San Jose or Los Angeles in the 60's and 70's.

I hope you like wearing a gas mask, because that's how toxic the air in those cities was before California seized control of it's own destiny.

While the inability to mod my car like most of the rest of the country irritates me, the irritation is inconsequential compared to the real irritation caused to my eyes, sinuses, and lungs by the former air quality in those cities.

This is one case where I hope The President does not get his way.

Like it or not, EGR, catalytic converters, and air injection are good for your health!

I agree with almost everything you are saying, except the way you are characterizing Trump's actions. For instance, EGR is a really good feature to reduce polution, and it doesn't impact performance at all. People that defeat EGR really irritate me.

The thing I'm upset about is that the super high fuel economy requirements are causing manufacturers to go to Direct Injection on gas engines. DI causes a gas engine to behave more like a diesel. Meaning the gas engine will emit more particles like diesels do. I would much rather see more fuel burned than to have more particles in the air. This is not progress in my opinion!

I don't think the president is against pollution controls. He's just against the crazy pollution controls that have very bad consequences for all of us and cost lots of money.

 

[Rover]

God, we car enthusiasts are a smug bunch. The primary purpose of emission controls is to assure all of us have clean air to breath. Think about your spouses, children, grandchildren, etc. Have you seen pictures of the smog laden cities in China? That what emission controls are designed to prevent.
Other states have followed California’s rules because they understand this. The current federal governments rollbacks of environmental controls are not being done to help us. They are designed to allow those who benefit from these rollbacks to make more money. This should come as a surprise no one.

And yes, this should probably be moved to the members lounge.

The truth is that human generated carbon dioxide is 2% of all atmospheric carbon dioxide. The other 98% is naturally occurring mostly produced by plants and the oceans. So yeah - It sounds like reducing car emissions is saving the planet for our babies but it's not so....

 

[Bikeman315]

The truth is that human generated carbon dioxide is 2% of all atmospheric carbon dioxide. The other 98% is naturally occurring mostly produced by plants and the oceans. So yeah - It sounds like reducing car emissions is saving the planet for our babies but it's not so....

CO2 is not the only component that emission controls keep in check. I am not a Californian so this isn’t my battle (directly) but it seems a number of your brothers disagree with you.

 

[Bikeman315]

The thing I'm upset about is that the super high fuel economy requirements are causing manufacturers to go to Direct Injection on gas engines. DI causes a gas engine to behave more like a diesel. Meaning the gas engine will emit more particles like diesels do. I would much rather see more fuel burned than to have more particles in the air. This is not progress in my opinion!

I agree with your thoughts about DI. I’m glad our Coyotes have direct & port injection. The reason for the mileage requirements is to reduce our use of fossil fuels. This is one of the factors behind the development and growth of electric power.

 

[ctandc72]

CA emissions make EVERYONE pay more for a car. Stop comparing smog levels and emissions controls from the 70's and 80's to now. It's a ridiculous and invalid comparison.
It was a waiver granted long before Obama - they (EPA) either ignored it or renewed it.

Catalytic converters are good thing for the country / planet. New converters are so much more efficient than older designs that they even eliminated the AIR systems that were needed to keep the older converters from failing.

But when you get to the point that the different standards aren't doing anything to help - you do get to the point of diminishing returns. And please stop with the melodramatic BS about our children dying. This planet has had warm periods and cold periods. You really think humans caused the dinosaurs to die off?

If the CA emissions standards work so wonderfully - how come CA consistently has cities ranking in the worse polluting cities in the country?

https://weather.com/news/news/2019-04-24-most-air-polluted-cities-us-2019-climate-change

It's almost as if vehicle emissions are a TINY piece of the puzzle affecting air quality.

Scientists have long known that INDUSTRIAL air pollution is a MUCH bigger problem than vehicle air pollution where human health hazards are concerned.

Why doesn't CA have 93 octane gas?

https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/no-more-92-premium-octane-rating-drops-california

That might help.

If people in CA really wanted to help reduce air pollution for their state and the entire country, they'd push their state and local governments to deal with the CONSTANT wildfire issues that CA has had for years. Forest management in CA has been an issue for years. Lately CA officials seem to want to blame "global warming". But it begs the question why other heavily wooded states with similar weather patterns don't suffer the same amount of large fires. Wind patterns do contribute - but controlled burns are needed...

See the report by Calfornia's own commission

https://lhc.ca.gov/report/fire-mountain-rethinking-forest-management-sierra-nevada

 

[Hack]

I agree with your thoughts about DI. I’m glad our Coyotes have direct & port injection. The reason for the mileage requirements is to reduce our use of fossil fuels. This is one of the factors behind the development and growth of electric power.

Right. The money behind electric power is busy bribing our politicians to require things that people don't want. Just like how politicians were bribed to make laws about light bulbs and ethanol, to name a couple.

I'm all for choice and for people to be able to buy what they want. If someone thinks throwing batteries in landfills is better than burning oil, that's fine with me. When the government gets involved it just makes problems, though. Let me have my inexpensive, reliable, long-lasting and simple V8.

 

[Rocket403]

If someone thinks throwing batteries in landfills is better than burning oil, that's fine with me. When the government gets involved it just makes problems, though. Let me have my inexpensive, reliable, long-lasting and simple V8.

I was thinking about this and have not seen any information based on what will happen to the electric car batteries when they are no longer usable, when these electric cars are 15 years old and these batteries are being removed how much will end up in landfill/ or shipped to some third world country for disposal. I can just see it now trying to dispose of tens of thousands of car batteries now that is not going to be good for the environment.

 

[ctandc72]

I was thinking about this and have not seen any information based on what will happen to the electric car batteries when they are no longer usable, when these electric cars are 15 years old and these batteries are being removed how much will end up in landfill/ or shipped to some third world country for disposal. I can just see it now trying to dispose of tens of thousands of car batteries now that is not going to be good for the environment.

It's bad.
The technology is slowly catching up, but right now there's no motivation to rush the tech (read $$$$).

Here's one take from 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/sustain...s-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

Stop comparing smog levels and emissions controls from the 70's and 80's to now. It's a ridiculous and invalid comparison.

Um. No. It's not. Smog levels in places like Los Angeles and San Jose are MUCH better today because of those 60s, 70s, and 80s, pollution control devices on cars. Are the devices better today? Duh. Does that mean earlier devices were worthless? Hardly.

If the CA emissions standards work so wonderfully - how come CA consistently has cities ranking in the worse polluting cities in the country?

Because we have more cars on the road? California has almost as many registered vehicles (15M) as the next two highest States (Texas and Florida, 8M each) combined.

It's almost as if vehicle emissions are a TINY piece of the puzzle affecting air quality.

With respect to places like Los Angeles and San Jose, entirely wrong. The improvement in air quality since the 50s, 60s, and 70s, is largely attributed by many authorities to the invention of the catalytic converter.

Look, sorry if Californians buy more cars than any other state, and auto manufactures are too cheap to make models for other markets. California does what California thinks is right for California. Your problem is really with the auto makers, and YOUR state. If you think California emission standards are too strict, get YOUR state to pass a law that says only federal emission standard cars can be imported and sold there.

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