DCT Performance?

[protraxduner]

So if/when someone grenades the DCT who is going to fix it (besides Ford)? Just wondering if there are DCT performance companies/products out there? I assume at this point being so green(Ford/Tremec) we wont have much to choose from until the market catches up. I am not even sure what 'performance' items there are for DCT? clutch packs? cryo-gears? hi-po servers? tunes, valve bodies......just wondering what is done to a DCT to handle high HP?

DCT scares me from a cost and knowledge perspective, I assume at some point a few years from now it will be more 'normal' to work on DCT just wondering if the traditional Tranny business/sites will change with the times.

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[Snoopy49]

This is why I am getting the extended warranty. Unless more manufacturers start to use these transmissions, it may be hard to get support in 5 years.

 

[protraxduner]

Yeah for a stock setup great idea, but for those that mod warranty is useless....

 

[Snoopy49]

Yeah for a stock setup great idea, but for those that mod warranty is useless....

If the demand is great enough, there will be services available. The problems I see to modding is the lack of knowledge and the sophistication and complexity involved with this transmission. Mechanically, I don't think there will be much of a problem, except for the availability of aftermarket parts. Dealing with the programing and interfacing with all the computers is going to be a problem. There are a lot of electronic components that could go south and potentially cause mechanical damage.

“This is a watershed moment for us at TREMEC,” said Matt Memmer, TREMEC engineering director. “All systems and subsystems – including hardware such as low leak solenoids, to control systems and software to optimize the performance of the system – were internally developed for maximum performance.”

What’s Inside Tremec’s all-new Seven-Speed Dual-Clutch Transmission in the New Shelby GT500 Mustang

Stunning Performance and Control

Dual-clutch transmission delivers

Applying 625 ft.-lb. of torque to the pavement effectively requires a transmission and driveline that can do more than just handle a massive amount of power. Ford Performance engineers collaborated with Tremec to design a gearbox that offers maximum driver control with stunningly fast shifting and greater performance across a wide spectrum of driving environments. The team’s “and” solution is the Tremec TR-9070 DCT 7-speed dual-clutch transmission.

“In many ways, this is like having two transmissions in one,” said Pat Morgan, Ford Performance powertrain manager. “On one hand, it enables performance at the outer reaches of straight-line quickness with minimal torque interruption, yet provides an incredible amount of finesse and control in track environments for maximum stability and predictability at the limits of lateral acceleration.”

To firmly and smoothly deliver torque, the TR-9070 DCT dual-clutch transmission has a novel wet clutch system with five friction plates in the odd-gear pack for a total of 155 square inches of surface area. In the even-gear pack, six friction plates provide 136 square inches of surface area. Transmission fluid is applied to the clutch surfaces only during thermal events for optimal cooling and minimal parasitic loss. Seven non-sequential helical forward gears with advanced triple cone synchros are carefully matched to the engine’s torque curve and are pre-selected by an electrohydraulic shift mechanism using energy-efficient low-leak solenoids that can execute shifts as quick as 80 milliseconds in sport mode.

Inside the control system, timing is everything. Shift points and clutch modulation are orchestrated by a computer-controlled mechatronics system that simultaneously reads dozens of vehicle and environmental factors – including engine and transmission rpm, driver input and g forces, and clutch and shift fork positions – to pre-select and engage the optimum shift for every driving situation. Steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters are direct-wired to the transmission to avoid CAN-bus vehicle communication system delays and initiate shifts as fast as 130 milliseconds, further enhancing responsiveness and connected feel.

“Contrary to popular belief, fast shifts do not always equate to better road performance,” said Morgan. “In every driving situation, we emulated what professional drivers do, whether it’s a smooth, precise heel-and-toe shift of a professional track driver or a much more forceful powershift like drag racers. We’ve designed the perfect shift every time.”

Drive modes add more personality

The 2020 Shelby GT500 has five drive modes that further enhance the driver experience with a flick of the console mounted mode switch. It instantly changes the car’s personality from a moderated “normal” car to a “track” master with more aggressive throttle responsiveness and gear selections. The system changes nearly every aspect of the car’s behavior, including ride dampening, stability control, antilock brake modulation and steering feel – even the sound and instrument panel change. Inside the TR-9070 DCT dual-clutch transmission, drive modes influence transmission shift points and feel.

In normal mode, the system selects gears and shift timing for moderated, everyday driving and seamless shifting. In sport mode, shift character changes, slicing shift timing by roughly 20 percent while throttle tip-in is more responsive and rpm ranges extend longer into the maximum torque curve.

Selecting track or drag mode further changes the shift characteristics to pure performance. For maximum straight-line quickness, gear changes use “over-torque” shifts for uninterrupted power delivery, similar to powershifts that give an extra torque hit in between upshifts. Take the Shelby GT500 into a turn, however, and the transmission immediately adapts with smooth, quick and seamless shifts to ensure maximum lateral g cornering by minimizing driveline disturbances.

Drive modes aside, an rpm-selectable launch control and electronic line lock through Track Apps® enable synchronous powertrain strategies that deliver optimum quarter-mile runs, while an always-on pseudo launch control enables spirited launches at any time without having to select a drive mode.

“Every aspect of the Shelby GT500 driving experience changes with the mode – be that the throttle responsiveness and snap of the shifts you feel in the seat of your pants, or the ‘pop and burble’ of the exhaust in performance modes. It’s a full multisensory visceral experience,” said Morgan.

Power output is transmitted to the 3.73:1 Torsen limited-slip independent rear suspension via a carbon fiber driveshaft for reduced rotational mass and torsional distortion, plus larger halfshafts and a redesigned rear suspension hub for added strength

 

[nastang87xx]

One thing that helps DCT's is they're inherent fundamental operation...DUAL clutch in that there are two sets of input clutches, not one. So when you're shifting from an odd gear to an even gear, that gear is already spinning up. In a torque converter auto, each planetary gear set can actually be more than one speed (note I said speed, not gear) and engaging the different parts of the planetary (either the sun gear or the whole gear set) will turn the output shaft at different ratios. Hence why you always hear "8 speed automatic" or "10 speed" automatic in the most technical of terms, not "8 gear automatic." In an auto, there are different clutch packs that get engaged either the sun or the whole set. Since there is one single input, a hard fast shift can put these clutch packs and the gear sets under very heavy stress, even though engine spark tables retard timing during shifts to aid in rev matching as much as possible. Now these transmissions obviously can handle their factory ratings but anything above and yes, you often will get premature wear in the clutch packs or destroy a planetary gear set.

With two inputs in a DCT system, those shock loads can be reduced because that second clutch system is spun up. Now that doesn't go to say a DCT is indestructible because it's not. But this concept helps to an extent, at least during up shifts. Launch control is about the most abusive thing you can do to a DCT because it's literally a clutch dump like in a manual, only that much quicker. You can't side step nearly as quick as these DCT's can punch an input clutch into place against the flywheel. It's brutal. And that's where a torque converter auto has the advantage. The torque converter softens that blow.

In the end, there's always going to be trade offs. Just trust that the engineers have done their homework and that the units have been produced with quality in mind. Tremec has a history of ruggedness. Yes they've had misses here and there but overall, a good unit.

 

[V00D00]

You will have Dodson for sure, and SSP

All the GTRs use Dodson stuff for guaranteed, and SSP on budget builds

personally, My Dodson Clutches worked great in my m3/E92, but others have had issues, conversely, every other BMW owner I know has had great success with SSP and NOT Dodson.

With the aftermarket of a Ford Vs BMW, there will be options, but it may take time, and will take $$

 

[nastang87xx]

I'd be willing to bet Ben Calimer will have a nice retirement at this rate.

 

[protraxduner]

So I assume those providing aftermarket support for the other major brands will jump on this bandwagon Especially since the C8 may be similar. Just don't break it early or you get to enjoy the learning curve at the price of your wallet.

 

[DCShelby]

In a Porsche they are not serviceable. You have to get a new one or a reconditioned unit. It’s about 17k for the unit and install.

 

[nastang87xx]

In a Porsche they are not serviceable. You have to get a new one or a reconditioned unit. It’s about 17k for the unit and install.

This is true, as are many other DCT's.

 

[V00D00]

So I assume those providing aftermarket support for the other major brands will jump on this bandwagon Especially since the C8 may be similar. Just don't break it early or you get to enjoy the learning curve at the price of your wallet.

correct

In a Porsche they are not serviceable. You have to get a new one or a reconditioned unit. It’s about 17k for the unit and install.

This is true, as are many other DCT's.

Not true. Dodson has at least clutches for them, and as my Friends at AIM have shown, they can take a lot of power:



https://www.facebook.com/AIMPerformanceNJ/

 

[BlackandBlue]

DCT or extremely torque sensitive. I believe that was one of the tuning problems with the new 5.2. Keeping the torque to a minimum while still making the correct horsepower. These transmissions will be awesome stock but could be a potential nitemare when torque levels increase.

 

[nastang87xx]

Keeping the torque to a minimum while still making the correct horsepower.

This statement doesn't make any sense at all. What do you mean by keeping the torque to a minimum while still making the correct horsepower? Horsepower is a function of RPM and torque. The horsepower is going to be what it's going to be. That 760 horsepower at 7300RPM is the result of 548lb ft torque at 7300RPM. The horsepower isn't going to be anything different.

Transmissions are rated by torque input capacity, not horsepower. They can be described in horsepower terms occasionally to simply some statements but that's it. And it gets very murky if it does go there.

 

[BlackandBlue]

This statement doesn't make any sense at all. What do you mean by keeping the torque to a minimum while still making the correct horsepower? Horsepower is a function of RPM and torque. The horsepower is going to be what it's going to be. That 760 horsepower at 7300RPM is the result of 548lb ft torque at 7300RPM. The horsepower isn't going to be anything different.

Transmissions are rated by torque input capacity, not horsepower. They can be described in horsepower terms occasionally to simply some statements but that's it. And it gets very murky if it does go there.

You are completely correct. I was talking more about the management at lower speeds. That’s why I talked about tuning.

DCT don’t have the ability to slip like a normal torque converter or even manual transmission so over torque situations in shifts at lower speeds are a serious consideration. You want max horsepower at a 7300 rpm shift but a WOT shift at 5250 may have a different strategy.

While this motor may only produce 625ft lbs of torque, without the ability to put excesses torque somewhere during shifts on a sticky surface things will break. DCT are known for a lot of things but torque handling is not one of them.

 

[mdmoore23]

Has anyone heard or read why they didn't use the 10 speed? That trans seems to have proven itself to be pretty robust and shift times aren't far off a DCT.

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