Who else is Manual or Bust?

[rebellovw]

Manual only for me. Gt or Gt350 are all I want.

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[waterman]

Reread my posts. If you're not going to "use" 700hp, you don't "need" 700hp on the street. You claim you want to shift and like shifting, yet you ignore the fact that you need to shift more in lower powered cars, which are more fun on the street. But rather you want ridiculous amounts of power in a manual, yet argue the lack of a need to use any of the power or rev range. You sir, are a joke.

First of all, let me apologize that your Mustang is not as fun to shift as a 180 HP Miata. Your words not mine.

Having 650+ HP/TQ is not about being able to use it all, or even part of the time. Rather, being able to utilize it when you need or want it... and having the maturity to know the difference. For the record; 600HP+ M6 is way more fun than Miata M6. Heck, it's not even close. If or when you actually drive a MT car at that power level, then and only then you are qualified to comment. If not, step away from the magazine/website and get yourself some real world experience.

There will always be faster cars and faster drivers. Yes, a DCT will make most drivers faster than MT. That is not the point of concern with manual purists in this thread.

It is about tradition and acquired skillset. Performance shifting is a dying art, and one that few have or will (especially now) ever come close to mastering. For me personally, it's the recollection of my father and grandfather teaching me to properly heel/toe. Then understanding from those lessons and practice, that a settled car and driver find the perfect apex with ease. When you hit it, you know it...Pops and Dad proudly felt it, before I realized that I actually pulled it off for the first time. I still find that day and place when I stick it. Pops is gone, but all of the lessons that he taught me live on and have been passed onto my sons.

It's not about lap times, it's about guts and feel and tradition and learned and shared experience. FWIW, I accept, but do not necessarily agree with your opinions. They, IMHO lack the aforementioned qualities. We will have to agree to disagree on these matters.

For the record; IMHO, Norm is a wise man with a great depth of experience.. I do not know him personally, but believe that we would get along famously. Your reference to him as being a joke is testimony to your immaturity and total lack of tact in debate.

 

[Eritas]

First of all, let me apologize that your Mustang is not as fun to shift as a 180 HP Miata. Your words not mine.

Misunderstanding what I said does not make you win an argument. It's getting old repeating that short-shifting any car at low RPM is boring while a 180hp Miata NEEDS to be revved out, pushed closer to its limit to simply keep with traffic. I find it hard for anyone to bring up a valid argument against a low powered Miata, S2000, FRS/BRZ on a twisty road not being more fun to shift and rev out at legal speeds than a 700hp long-geared supercar that does not require any shifting. As I said multiple times, my 5.0 Mustang has far more power than what's necessary and 700hp is excessive and wouldn't be any more 'engaging' to shift than my Mustang.

It is about tradition and acquired skillset. Performance shifting is a dying art, and one that few have or will (especially now) ever come close to mastering. For me personally, it's the recollection of my father and grandfather teaching me to properly heel/toe. Then understanding from those lessons and practice, that a settled car and driver find the perfect apex with ease. When you hit it, you know it...Pops and Dad proudly felt it, before I realized that I actually pulled it off for the first time. I still find that day and place when I stick it. Pops is gone, but all of the lessons that he taught me live on and have been passed onto my sons.

It's not about lap times, it's about guts and feel and tradition and learned and shared experience. FWIW, I accept, but do not necessarily agree with your opinions. They, IMHO lack the aforementioned qualities. We will have to agree to disagree on these matters.

For the record; IMHO, Norm is a wise man with a great depth of experience.. I do not know him personally, but believe that we would get along famously. Your reference to him as being a joke is testimony to your immaturity and total lack of tact in debate.

Yes, and a large number of the already fractionally insignificant "manual-lovers" demand things like rev-matching downshifts. This is absurdly hypocritical when they want electronics to blip the throttle for them and defeats the purpose of the connection to a car and a manual transmission. Norm agrees here but he refuses to realize that he's a dying breed and people who can heel-toe downshift is a small fraction of the already small fraction of people who like manuals.

 

[rick81721]

 

[stanglife]

 

[Norm Peterson]

Reread my posts. If you're not going to "use" 700hp, you don't "need" 700hp on the street.

I absolutely would use all 700 hp if that much was available to me. Just not on the street.

You claim you want to shift and like shifting, yet you ignore the fact that you need to shift more in lower powered cars

I am not ignoring that. You're ignoring that choosing to shift more often with higher powered cars is still a valid way to drive such cars. Just because you prefer to not make "extra" or "unnecessary" shifts doesn't change this.

, which are more fun on the street. But rather you want ridiculous amounts of power in a manual, yet argue the lack of a need to use any of the power or rev range. You sir, are a joke.

Joke's on you if think I'm supposed to use any more power or revs in street driving than necessary. Sorry if driving a high performance car in mild to no more than moderate fashion on the street offends your vision of how such a car "should" be driven.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's getting old repeating that short-shifting any car at low RPM is boring

That's your opinion, which you are fully entitled to hold.

It is not a universal truth, no matter how many times you repeat it.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, and a large number of the already fractionally insignificant "manual-lovers" demand things like rev-matching downshifts. This is absurdly hypocritical when they want electronics to blip the throttle for them and defeats the purpose of the connection to a car and a manual transmission. Norm agrees here but he refuses to realize that he's a dying breed and people who can heel-toe downshift is a small fraction of the already small fraction of people who like manuals.

Let me fix that boldfaced text for you. Maybe I am part of a dying breed. But the refusal isn't in recognizing that situation, it's about not turning my back on my own judgment and what I've come to know about myself . . . just because lots of other people are choosing something else.


Norm

 

[V00D00]

so we can all agree, 65% of manual or bust guys arent even in the buying pool.

 

[bdub85]

Misunderstanding what I said does not make you win an argument. It's getting old repeating that short-shifting any car at low RPM is boring while a 180hp Miata NEEDS to be revved out, pushed closer to its limit to simply keep with traffic. I find it hard for anyone to bring up a valid argument against a low powered Miata, S2000, FRS/BRZ on a twisty road not being more fun to shift and rev out at legal speeds than a 700hp long-geared supercar that does not require any shifting. As I said multiple times, my 5.0 Mustang has far more power than what's necessary and 700hp is excessive and wouldn't be any more 'engaging' to shift than my Mustang.

Yes, and a large number of the already fractionally insignificant "manual-lovers" demand things like rev-matching downshifts. This is absurdly hypocritical when they want electronics to blip the throttle for them and defeats the purpose of the connection to a car and a manual transmission. Norm agrees here but he refuses to realize that he's a dying breed and people who can heel-toe downshift is a small fraction of the already small fraction of people who like manuals.

Forget heel toe. How about people who can drive a synchroless manual? I had a dog box in one of my cars that I daily drove. Every normal shift requires double clutching unless you’re racing where you can shift without the clutch.

 

[Braski]

so we can all agree, 65% of manual or bust guys arent even in the buying pool.

No, I'd say 100% of "manual or bust guys" are not in the buying pool.

 

[Eritas]

Forget heel toe. How about people who can drive a synchroless manual? I had a dog box in one of my cars that I daily drove. Every normal shift requires double clutching unless you’re racing where you can shift without the clutch.

You don't need to use the clutch in dog ring transmissions. Other than starting from a stop. Double clutching is completely unnecessary for dog rings or synchros.

Prior to paddle shift race transmissions, almost no one was double clutching in pro racing.

 

[bdub85]

You don't need to use the clutch in dog ring transmissions. Other than starting from a stop. Double clutching is completely unnecessary for dog rings or synchros.

Prior to paddle shift race transmissions, almost no one was double clutching in pro racing.

Obviously. I’m talking normal driving. When I was racing, the only time I’d use the clutch is from a stop in 1st.

 

[V00D00]

You don't need to use the clutch in dog ring transmissions. Other than starting from a stop. Double clutching is completely unnecessary for dog rings or synchros.

Prior to paddle shift race transmissions, almost no one was double clutching in pro racing.

need and should if you want it to last, are separate.

 

[bdub85]

need and should if you want it to last, are separate.

Exactly. Eventually the dogs get rounded on the edges and they need to be replaced. When the dogs get too worn, you'll have issues with gears jumping out. With normal driving, you want the engagement to be as smooth as possible if you want to extend the life of the dogs.

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