Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

[jake_zx2]

If by "narrow casing" you are speaking about how tight the case is to the internal gears in the TR3160, than OK. But you can't lump that in so generally, as the MT82 is just as bad. Just as tight. Just as little fluid capacity. You cannot translate that to the TR6060, though. So, be careful with that blanket statement. In relation to the cooling fins, maybe Tremec never integrated them into their cases because their transmissions don't run as hot as the Getrag. Read that carefully. I'm not saying the TR3160 wont run hot, needing a cooler, especially on something that is revving to 8,000 RPM. I'm saying, same car, the difference being the transmission, don't be surprised if the Tremec doesn't run as hot as the Getrag. Why isn't the Getrag unit used in racing and the Tremecs are? Don't get me wrong, I like the Getrag, for a "sport" transmission. There is a good design intent there, but the execution isn't a "performance" transmission.

The PP2 is an interesting package. Personally and technically, I don't see the point. From a business point, I get it. Those are some sweet wheels!

I will say, I guarantee you, for $6,500, you can put together a PP2 [track] outperformer from a base car. Again, read that carefully.

A lot of you guys are getting pretty divided amongst each other. Try to keep an open mind here.

Trust me, I'm not trying to say that the MT-82 is a superior transmission, because it definitely isn't. What I'm saying, is it's not as bad as many think. Contrary to your statement, the Getrag IS used in racing, as plenty of people have run them in their Boss 302 and standard GT cars competitively. I'm fairly certain the Boss 302S race car also retained the MT-82. The only motorsport where people really have issues with the MT-82 is in drag racing, where people break shift forks from no lift shifting, among other mechanical (not temperature related) mishaps. In the road racing world, there really aren't all that many complaints or failures from the MT-82. All I'm saying is that either of the Tremec options would likely be far more catastrophic on track without coolers than the MT-82.

I agree that you may be able to put together a FASTER car for $6500, but you're going to make tradeoffs in either durability or street legality. You can make a faster car, you can't make a more well rounded car.

I will say, I appreciate your level headed input

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[Norm Peterson]

This is exactly the point. You aren't going to get a well rounded, durable, highly capable car like the PP2 for $6500 in the aftermarket. The only reason to build from a base GT is if, like myself, you plan on blowing $5k on coilovers, $3k on lightweight wheels and slicks, $4500 on a Big Brake kit, full aero, etc.

Personally, if I was looking at a PP2 at all (and it would be on a very short list at this point in time) being "well-rounded" doesn't even make the list of priorities.

Yes, I would DD such a car, given the notion of having at least two sets of tires. Same as I would a GT350R, or a 5th gen Z/28, which come/came from the factory with sub-200 treadwear tires.


Norm

 

[Mountain376]

Trust me, I'm not trying to say that the MT-82 is a superior transmission, because it definitely isn't. What I'm saying, is it's not as bad as many think. Contrary to your statement, the Getrag IS used in racing, as plenty of people have run them in their Boss 302 and standard GT cars competitively. I'm fairly certain the Boss 302S race car also retained the MT-82. The only motorsport where people really have issues with the MT-82 is in drag racing, where people break shift forks from no lift shifting, among other mechanical (not temperature related) mishaps. In the road racing world, there really aren't all that many complaints or failures from the MT-82. All I'm saying is that either of the Tremec options would likely be far more catastrophic on track without coolers than the MT-82.

I agree that you may be able to put together a FASTER car for $6500, but you're going to make tradeoffs in either durability or street legality. You can make a faster car, you can't make a more well rounded car.

I will say, I appreciate your level headed input

No, it’s definitely not garbage. It has its pluses and minuses. Not the best choice for the Mustang V8 IMO.

The MT82 is not used int the Boss 302S. That car and the 302R use the Tremec. Tiger Racing, while developing the 302S, tried to use the MT82. It overheated, not durable and difficult to service so they went to a GT500 TR6060, then to the Magnum (direct linkage shifter) as it came out. There are some people that “race” with it in time trials. As far as club racing, the Tremec is used. Drag racing is both.

Exactly my point on the $6500!

You’re welcome on being level headed!

 

[WildHorse]

I will say, I guarantee you, for $6,500, you can put together a PP2 [track] outperformer from a base car. Again, read that carefully.

100%
A very good start:
M-FR3A-M8A 2015-2018 MUSTANG TRACK HANDLING PACK~ $1500
M-3075-F 2015-2018 MUSTANG PERFORMANCE PACK FRONT CONTROL ARM KIT~ $300
M-20201-GT350 2015-2018 MUSTANG GT350R STRUT TOWER BRACE KIT~ $300
M-2300-V 2015-2018 MUSTANG PERFORMANCE PACK 6-PISTON FRONT BRAKE KIT~ $1300
305/30r19 MPSC2 tires $1600 (I prefer the Continentals same performance imo, cheaper price.)
19 x 11 wheels $1500 (some more $$, others less, I went middle of the pack.)
$6500 full blown retail. Thrifty shoppers can prolly get it for less, and could prolly use the $$ Saved
to get 3.73 TORSEN. This way with the base GT.. your not forced to buy unwanted packages. More
$$$ saved.

 

[Mountain376]

Personally, if I was looking at a PP2 at all (and it would be on a very short list at this point in time) being "well-rounded" doesn't even make the list of priorities.

Yes, I would DD such a car, given the notion of having at least two sets of tires. Same as I would a GT350R, or a 5th gen Z/28, which come/came from the factory with sub-200 treadwear tires.


Norm

The enthusiast in me agrees with you, but that just isn’t realistic in even the GT350 (non-R; arguably the R) or SS 1LE. Unless you take a ZL1 1LE approach, the car has to be daily driveable in three seasons.

 

[jake_zx2]

Personally, if I was looking at a PP2 at all (and it would be on a very short list at this point in time) being "well-rounded" doesn't even make the list of priorities.

Yes, I would DD such a car, given the notion of having at least two sets of tires. Same as I would a GT350R, or a 5th gen Z/28, which come/came from the factory with sub-200 treadwear tires.

And that's exactly why this isn't a car suited for you, nor is a GT350R, or a Z/28. Those are cars that are meant to be street legal sunday drivers that can be used as a serious track weapon then driven home. Being well rounded is the sole purpose of this car.

If you want a pure track weapon, buy a base mustang, add coilovers, big brakes, wide wheels and slicks, and strip the interior. Get a tow rig and trailer while you're at it. anything less is a compromise.

100%
A very good start:
M-FR3A-M8A 2015-2018 MUSTANG TRACK HANDLING PACK~ $1500
M-3075-F 2015-2018 MUSTANG PERFORMANCE PACK FRONT CONTROL ARM KIT~ $300
M-20201-GT350 2015-2018 MUSTANG GT350R STRUT TOWER BRACE KIT~ $300
M-2300-V 2015-2018 MUSTANG PERFORMANCE PACK 6-PISTON FRONT BRAKE KIT~ $1300
305/30r19 MPSC2 tires $1600 (I prefer the Continentals same performance imo, cheaper price.)
19 x 11 wheels $1500 (some more $$, others less, I went middle of the pack.)
$6500 full blown retail. Thrifty shoppers can prolly get it for less, and could prolly use the $$ Saved
to get 3.73 TORSEN. This way with the base GT.. your not forced to buy unwanted packages. More
$$$ saved.

See, I agree this is an excellent start for anyone who can't afford a PP2 off the jump. However, this might perform , at best, on par with a PP2, and won't have the longevity that the PP2 does. Yet, even after that $6500, you'd still have to add $1000 for a diff cooler, which is the main point for people bitching about the PP2 not being a bargain. And with the price drops that some savvy shoppers may be able to find, shipping/installation costs will outweigh any discounts they are able to get

 

[sigintel]

Good stuff in this thread.
I bought a 10R80 PP1 to take a stab at budget DD track car. Goal is all around fun and durability, not necessarily fastest car on the track just like the 2015 w Whipple.
Street, strip, road course and maybe autocross.
Will keep a salvage 10R80 handy for the inevitable. Will add oil, diff, trans cooling, 170tstat

Went PP1 for preinstalled GT350 rad, 6 pot brembos, torsen rear. 550+1050+1500+labor= buy the PP1 as better value (plus no diff change lol that diff oil stank).
Plan on spending money on C127 Motec, KW3 or CS2/3/4, GroundControl plates, will add aircups for driveway and street if needed, already have 305,315, 18x11 and 19x11 sets DOT track to reuse from the 2015, Dorman studs, spacers, bumpster kit if needed.
Might change to GT350 front suspension or PP2 spindles long term.
TT low mount after above is sorted.

The FRPP Track suspension is excellent value, but I already scrape driveway w stock on 305 18 NT01.

FRPP Track kit ($1000) on a PP1 with SVE 19x11 w 305 NT01 or SC2 square would likely be the best value performer for track use. Upgrade wheels if you are going to run the curbing for 2 seasons or just constantly dye penetrant the backs of spokes and outer rim lip. It would still need coolers and 2 piece brakes to challenge a 1SS 1LE for 20 minutes in 3rd session of the day.
If I come up w cooler solution, itll prolly get sold at cost.

My huge question, does anyone have a PP2 they can jack up the front end and take off a wheel and take pictures of the spindle and bearing?

 

[mustang5o]

Good stuff in this thread.
I bought a 10R80 PP1 to take a stab at budget DD track car. Goal is all around fun and durability,
Street, strip, road course and maybe autocross.

This is what I'm also considering. Possibly a better all around choice, even for road course. I don't really care about the SC2 tires because one of the events I do counts them the same as take off slicks (but the PP2 wheels are the best). Might be tough to move away from a manual trans. Though the clutch on the PP2 I test drove was tough for me to get used to. Driving again tomorrow as well as an auto car.

Will keep a salvage 10R80 handy for the inevitable. Will add oil, diff, trans cooling, 170tstat

Good ideas. Have you priced one out yet?

My huge question, does anyone have a PP2 they can jack up the front end and take off a wheel and take pictures of the spindle and bearing?

My huge question is if the 10R80 can handle road course duty for a weekend. I mean, I guess I'd have warranty for a while but I would hate to have a fun weekend cut short by burned up trans.

 

[jake_zx2]

I've seen people tracking the 10R80 for some 20 minute sessions with no issues. I'm sure you'd be fine

 

[mustang5o]

I've seen people tracking the 10R80 for some 20 minute sessions with no issues. I'm sure you'd be fine

Thanks. Good to hear.

 

[sigintel]

I changed trans fluid on the 2015 6R80 often over 2 seasons.
I did relocate the trans cooler catywampus angled into passengers fender so it got virgin air.
Not sure if that offsets against the Whipple at 8psi.
6R80 is an impressive transmission.

 

[NorthernBeast]

I have an 18 GT PP1 10R80 with Magneride and I have tracked my car on multiple occasions without any problems. I can go out and run for 20+ minutes of hard lapping without any over heating issues but I keep my eye on temp's and do proper cool down laps after every 7-8 laps just to be safe. The car has been able to come within .6 of a second of a GT350 (same track & driver) after only 3 hot laps and I was told it had more in it had we had more time behind the wheel.

I was looking to build a 10R80 PP2 style car since it wasn't offered when I was shopping. The parts I added were:

SVE S350 19x10/11 Wheels
Michelin PSS 295/305 Tires
Ford Performance M-5300-W GT350 springs for Magneride cars
Roush 3 piece front splitter + high flow lower grill
JLT V3.0 Oil Separator
Cervinis Upper Grill

I plan on the following upgrades over this winter:

JLT Cold Air
Ford Performance X-Pipe
Dyno Tune
Baer 2-Piece Front Brake Rotors

Instagram is @northernbeast_s550

 

[NorthernBeast]

I've seen people tracking the 10R80 for some 20 minute sessions with no issues. I'm sure you'd be fine

I have tracked my 10R80 and Auto-crossed it without any problems with over heating etc.

 

[mustang5o]

I have an 18 GT PP1 10R80 with Magneride and I have tracked my car on multiple occasions without any problems. I can go out and run for 20+ minutes of hard lapping without any over heating issues but I keep my eye on temp's and do proper cool down laps after every 7-8 laps just to be safe. The car has been able to come within .6 of a second of a GT350 (same track & driver) after only 3 hot laps and I was told it had more in it had we had more time behind the wheel.

I was looking to build a 10R80 PP2 style car since it wasn't offered when I was shopping. The parts I added were:

SVE S350 19x10/11 Wheels
Michelin PSS 295/305 Tires
Ford Performance M-5300-W GT350 springs for Magneride cars
Roush 3 piece front splitter + high flow lower grill
JLT V3.0 Oil Separator
Cervinis Upper Grill

I plan on the following upgrades over this winter:

JLT Cold Air
Ford Performance X-Pipe
Dyno Tune
Baer 2-Piece Front Brake Rotors

Instagram is @northernbeast_s550

Great car. That's pretty close to what I was thinking. I wonder how the aero is with the Roush splitter and stock wing? Did Roush advertise theirs as providing additional downforce? I was thinking GT350R rear wing and some kind of front splitter that actually provides solid downforce. I was looking at Hankook RS4 tires.

Hearing more and more of these reports with the 10R80 is getting me excited for the possibilities.

 

[w3rkn]

You've proven nothing except that you don't really understand everything that is including in PP1 & PP2 cars. You left out tons and tons of items, and then completely ignored the labor to install them. It would cost 2-3 times the MSRP to create a PP2 car from a base GT, and that's just guessing on the low side.

Please....you've stated your point. You've made your opinions loud and clear. It's enough now, we get your perspective.

Incorrect.

You have failed to prove that all the things in the PP1 are track specific, that aren't eclipsed in the aftermarket. If you go over the "list" of pp1 stuff, you will see that most can be added yourself, in aftermarket, which is of higher quality than production stuff. And in which PP1 & PP2 owner can also upgrade too. (dERP!)

Again, does PP1/PP2 options have aftermarket radiator and coolers, or GT350 brakes, knuckles, etc..? Which is substantially more track focused, than what Ford sells as options on their production Mustangs. You really don't have an argument.


Nobody is trying to make a replica PP2 car... they are optioning for a more focused track car, than the PP2. (ie: home brew PP3)

Again, You would still have to buy the aftermarket coolers & the GT350 upgrade kit I mentioned, on top of a PP2 package, to match what I have presented. Not sure why you keep overlooking that point... as it is clearly stated in my last post. Again, $5k in UPGRADED parts, (that can also be added to a PP2), than can also be added to a Base GT. So if you are going that route, why start with the PP2 again if your focus is tracking..?

Not sure why you can't see the simplicity in this logic. Again, there really is no argument unless you NEED magneride. Than all bets are off.

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