Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[SuperC]

I think the sales breakdown of the past few years is correct for the philosophy of Ford, GM and Dodge. And they're all bullheaded about maintaining their identity regardless of sales and performance.

You have to REALLY want a Camaro to sit in that thing for very long and you have to value performance and handling above everything else. Sitting in a Challenger feels the most like a spacious classic muscle car but you have to get a Scat Pack if outrunning a family sedan means anything to you.

Ford finds the middle ground between both and is content to appear submissive vs. the Camaro. They just flat out refuse to put the R&D dollars towards building a faster car. They didn't even make the s550 track pack faster than the 2014 1LE. They won the mindshare of sports car buyers decades ago and they're going to sit on it as long as they can.

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[B4Sunrise]

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/

Could be old news but it really sounds like Motor trend does everything but cup Chevys balls while writing up their articles.

"Then came the track. We took the two American icons out to Streets of Willow. Here’s the good news for Ford fans. The fastback GT laid down a 1:23.97 lap. That’s 0.24 second off the aforementioned M4 (1:23.73), just quicker than a Lexus RC F (1:24.08), and nearly three tenths of a second better than a 2015 Mustang GT Performance Pack (1:24.29). The bad news? The Camaro SS 1LE laid down a 1:20.67 lap, 3.3 seconds quicker. In other words, these two cars wouldn’t be allowed to race together. Different class doesn’t cover it. The list of cars the Camaro went faster than should embarrass some OEMs: Porsche Cayman GT4, 2014 Audi R8 V10 Plus, Ferrari 458 Italia. I mean, come on!"

"the 2018 Mustang got its butt handed to it. For less money, Chevy stone-cold out-engineered Ford. And this is what that galls me. Not only should Ford have done a better job, but I also know they can do a better job. The Shelby GT350R—a car that’s every inch as awesome and breathtaking as a Porsche GT3—proves Ford has the knowledge to build a better car. Now it remains to be seen how much the forthcoming Performance Pack 2 closes the handling gap with that GT350 R and this Camaro SS 1LE."



Thoughts?

I disagree with you first of all the most common competition between the Mustang and Camaro are drag races and with no skill at all the 2018 Mustang with the 10 speed is going to easily win that one. As a Mustang owner that is well aware if I were to see an SS 1LE on the road the 1LE is a better handlers on a track; I don't care. What I do care about is how comfortable I am in the car; which I know is better in the Mustang. I care about the comfort of my kids in the back seat; they love it. I care that I can take my girlfriend for a three day weekend with requisite luggage, I doubt the Camaro could do that. I care that she loves the car, she comments - it's surprisingly practical..., we both know the Camaro isn't going to get that comment. It looks good, and a 2016 Mustang GT, is still a superb handling car with strong acceleration. I have never seen an alpha SS on the road much less an alpha SS 1LE, the one person I know that bought a Camaro (V6)sold it within six months because it's interior was just too small - bought a CRV instead. There was no "out-engineering" that took place with the alpha Camaro, it's interior is tiny and cramped, any passengers are likely to get motion sickness. And there there is the hilarious story I like to tell about a guy in key west that had a Camaro rental; he was a tad overweight however not that bad, it took him at least 30 seconds to get into the driver's seat. His struggle actually drew and audience and people were coming to help him. I was driving by in a rented Mustang Convertible and stopped and asked if he was okay, he was not happy with that car and looked longingly at the orange 'stang I was driving! I did look at the Camaro before I bought a S550 Mustang, even knowing the heralded performance I knew as soon as I sat in it, I knew after the newness wore off and the reality of living with it set in I'd hate it. On the other hand, when I sat in the Mustang it just felt right and still does to this day.

It's an open secret Ford led engineering on the 10 speed; and there is a reason for that GM's reputation for RWD transmissions is poor. GM led the design on the FWD 9 speed; Ford is taking a long look at it before putting it into production.

I am person that likes to do comparisons to know my options; In my opinion the Camaro is no longer a direct competitor to the Mustang because in reality it's a two seater that is meant to drive no more than 2 people. It appears Ford believes the same as they are now looking to the Challenger as their main competitor; as they should. Fact is GM built a car for magazine editors and not actual buyers, I bet there are a lot of 5th generation Camaro owners hoping the 7th generation Camaro returns to a true 2+2.
When you say GM "out-engineered" Ford - what they did was make the Camaro into a two seater. How is dropping a key constraint "out-engineering"? I for one am impressed that Ford built a true 2+2 that is 9/10's of what a severely compromised Camaro. Will the Camaro be able to survive on it's low sales? the speciality cars are funded by sales; the ZL1 & ZL1 1LE of this generation were likely funded by the success of the Zeta based Camaro. You say it's impressive engineering, I say it was short sighted and frankly if GM doesn't get it right with the 7th generation Camaro I can't imagine there will be an 8th.

 

[tranceporter]

I disagree with you first of all the most common competition between the Mustang and Camaro are drag races and with no skill at all the 2018 Mustang with the 10 speed is going to easily win that one. As a Mustang owner that is well aware if I were to see an SS 1LE on the road the 1LE is a better handlers on a track; I don't care. Plus i have never seen an alpha SS much less an alpha SS 1LE, the one person I know that bought a Camaro sold it within six months because it's interior was just too small - bought a CRV instead. There was no "out-engineering" that took place with the alpha Camaro, it's interior is tiny and cramped, any passengers are likely to get motion sickness. And there there is the hilarious story I like to tell about a guy in key west that had a Camaro rental; he was a tad overweight however not that bad, it took him around 30 seconds to get into the driver's seat. His struggle actually drew and audience and people were coming to help him. I was driving by and stopped and asked if he was okay, he was not happy with that car! I did look at the Camaro before I bought a S550 Mustang, even knowing the heralded performance I knew as soon as I sat in it, I knew after the newness wore off and the reality of living with it set in I'd hate it. On the other hand, when I sat in the Mustang it just felt right and still does to this day.

It's an open secret Ford led engineering on the 10 speed; and there is a reason for that GM's reputation for RWD transmissions is poor. GM led the design on the FWD 9 speed; Ford is taking a long look at it before putting it into production.

I am person that likes to do comparisons to know my options; In my opinion the Camaro is no longer a direct competitor to the Mustang because in reality it's a two seater that is meant to drive no more than 2 people. It appears Ford believes the same as they are now looking to the Challenger as their main competitor; as they should. Fact is GM built a car for magazine editors and not actual buyers, I bet there are a lot of 5th generation Camaro owners hoping the 7th generation Camaro returns to a true 2+2.
When you say GM "out-engineered" Ford - what they did was make the Camaro into a two seater. How is dropping a key constraint "out-engineering"? I for one am impressed that Ford built a true 2+2 that is 9/10's of what a severely compromised Camaro. Will the Camaro be able to survive on it's low sales? the speciality cars are funded by sales; the ZL1 & ZL1 1LE of this generation were likely funded by the success of the Zeta based Camaro. You say it's impressive engineering, I say it was short sighted and frankly if GM doesn't get it right with the 7th generation Camaro I can't imagine there will be an 8th.

So because the Camaro has an unusable back seat it's not a competitor?

The Challenger has a gigantic backseat compared to the Mustang (which is borderline unusable). Using your logic, the case can be made that Challenger and Mustang aren't direct competitors either.

I happen to think that the Mustang and Camaro have evolved into true sports cars and are more similar to each other than the Challenger (which is hundreds of pounds heavier, several inches longer, and cannot carve a corner as well as the other two). With that being said, all three cars have the same amount of doors, the same amount of seats, the same amount of cylinders, similar performance and similar price points. They are and will continue to be direct competitors.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I disagree with you first of all the most common competition between the Mustang and Camaro are drag races and with no skill at all the 2018 Mustang with the 10 speed is going to easily win that one.

Need I remind you that this comparison that's under endless discussion was about a whole lot more than just drag racing, so you can't invalidate it by throwing out the parts of it that you don't care much about and replacing them with a parts combination better suited to a review by Drag Racing Magazine.

As a Mustang owner that is well aware if I were to see an SS 1LE on the road the 1LE is a better handlers on a track; I don't care.

Are you saying that just because you don't care to read about cornering & handling that nobody else should be able to read about those things either? Truth be told, I don't care any more about drag racing than you care about road course driving. But I'm not going to jump into a drag racing discussion and tell everybody there that I don't give a rat's ass about their favorite kind of car competition.

Plus i have never seen an alpha SS much less an alpha SS 1LE, the one person I know that bought a Camaro sold it within six months because it's interior was just too small - bought a CRV instead.

I've actually driven one. Briefly, and not a 1LE, but enough to get some feel for the car. Your acquaintance who ended up with a CRV really wasn't a ponycar-shopper to begin with. Did he even try a Mustang?

There was no "out-engineering" that took place with the alpha Camaro, it's interior is tiny and cramped, any passengers are likely to get motion sickness.

Interior design has nothing to do with performance engineering. Nor does sales. Using comparisons about non-performance stuff to put down the kind of performance you don't care about . . . I guess to make it even I could put down drag racing results and those comparisons on the basis of the cars not having equally usable cupholders.

You have reasons that make good enough sense to you, but that does not make them universal truths. Quite a few people wish that the PP1 had put up a better showing, that the PP1 had been more fully developed (i.e. engineered). Even for street driving.


Norm

 

[B4Sunrise]

Need I remind you that this comparison that's under endless discussion was about a whole lot more than just drag racing, so you can't invalidate it by throwing out the parts of it that you don't care much about and replacing them with a parts combination better suited to a review by Drag Racing Magazine.



Are you saying that just because you don't care to read about cornering & handling that nobody else should be able to read about those things either? Truth be told, I don't care any more about drag racing than you care about road course driving. But I'm not going to jump into a drag racing discussion and tell everybody there that I don't give a rat's ass about their favorite kind of car competition.



I've actually driven one. Briefly, and not a 1LE, but enough to get some feel for the car. Your acquaintance who ended up with a CRV really wasn't a ponycar-shopper to begin with. Did he even try a Mustang?



Interior design has nothing to do with performance engineering. Nor does sales. Using comparisons about non-performance stuff to put down the kind of performance you don't care about . . . I guess to make it even I could put down drag racing results and those comparisons on the basis of the cars not having equally usable cupholders.

You have reasons that make good enough sense to you, but that does not make them universal truths. Quite a few people wish that the PP1 had put up a better showing, that the PP1 had been more fully developed (i.e. engineered). Even for street driving.


Norm

The Mustang still corners quite well; it's as if because the Camaro is better, the Mustang is horrible - it's not, in fact is very, very good. You're focusing on too narrow a set of attributes. I have driven them both, on public roads I don't believe it's possible to tell the difference.

When you say "quite a few" what you mean as people that don't actually buy them, those of us that do it's not a big deal. Ford's strategy with the Mustang has always been to leave room for after market parts and they do. While I don't track my car, those that do are updating parts regularly. If you take a gander at the Camaro6 site, you'll see a lot of them are replacing a lot of suspension parts as well. As a long time Mustang GT fan, I am 100% comfortable with it's GT mission. If you want a track car get a GT350 and guess what Ford sells almost double the number of GT350's as GM sells SS 1LE's. For all it's heralding GM has a 4-6% take rate for the SS 1LE, so any time an SS 1LE is at a track there is likely at least one GT350 there capable of putting the Camaro in it's rearview and leaving it further and further behind. A GT350 is in the end - a Mustang. Though I am not interested, my guess is the PP2 Ford is offering covers those that want more out of a Mustang GT, however for elite drivers the 5.2L FPC is the ultimate NA engine for a pony car, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

And I spend most of my time with my car in the interior; to me it's very important. I don't need the expensive interior that can be had with BMW or Mercedes, however well thought out; roomy - yes and the Mustang absolutely nails that, I still find myself amazed at how well thought out GT Premium's interior is and I've had it for going on two years now.

 

[B4Sunrise]

Sure, it's speculation, but it's also worth noting. PP1 and SS put down similar numbers and have similar price points. To say that the camaro is the better performing car is simply coming to a blind conclusion.

I doubt there will be a big gap between the 1LE and PP2. Only place the 1LE will have an advantage is longevity because of the cooling they offer. I really prefer high revving engines to low end torque. Low end torque just gets boring to me.

Well; not sure if you follow the IMSA GS series, however the GT4 Camaro isn't being used by teams this year. When it came out a team tried it(Stevenson), they reported having a very difficult time keeping the engine cool.
The GS teams are limited to 500 HP so more or less those engines are similar to stock; rules don't allow much modification to the stock engine components. Is that why the 2018 appears to actually have upwards of 480 HP? There are those that speculate the 2018 is pushing 500, my guess with a few minor changes - yes it would.

 

[ls6-m22]

The Mustang still corners quite well; it's as if because the Camaro is better, the Mustang is horrible - it's not, in fact is very, very good. You're focusing on too narrow a set of attributes. I have driven them both, on public roads I don't believe it's possible to tell the difference.

That's funny in the previous post you said you never seen an alpha SS. How'd you get to drive one then?

 

[jake_zx2]

Well; not sure if you follow the IMSA GS series, however the GT4 Camaro isn't being used by teams this year. When it came out a team tried it(Stevenson), they reported having a very difficult time keeping the engine cool.
The GS teams are limited to 500 HP so more or less those engines are similar to stock; rules don't allow much modification to the stock engine components. Is that why the 2018 appears to actually have upwards of 480 HP? There are those that speculate the 2018 is pushing 500, my guess with a few minor changes - yes it would.

I have been following it a little bit, but didn't realize that was the issue with the Camaros. I'm wondering what would cause that, because the stock ones never seem to have that problem. I highly doubt the mustang is making much more than it's advertised 460, we had a discussion about this in another thread;
SAE certification allows for 2% deviation in power numbers. For the mustang engine, that would allow up to 470ish HP. Dynos are typically seeing around 420whp stock, and at 470hp with about 11% loss to the wheels, those numbers add up. then you also have to account for deviation in dyno numbers. I'd guess that the most powerful stock 2018s out there MIGHT be making 475hp, but those are going to be your unicorns

 

[Norm Peterson]

The Mustang still corners quite well; it's as if because the Camaro is better, the Mustang is horrible

"Horrible" is your word, not mine.

It still came up short in this comparison, like it did before. But you're kind of making the point for me that the PP1 has never been as serious or as capable as its name implies it should have been. Particularly during the time when it included the top wheel/tire/suspension options available anywhere on the order sheet.

You're focusing on too narrow a set of attributes.

It's a performance comparison, not a CR or Edmunds review, and there are only three basic things to measure (forward acceleration, braking, and cornering) and a limited number of ways to measure each. There's no point in focusing on the performance measures that were essentially tied, which takes out quite a few. Road course times are kind of an overall measure of all three taken together, which really ought to carry more weight than any individual measure such as 0-60, ET or skidpad g's taken individually.

I suppose I could pick on the differences in braking distance and figure 8 g-values as well . . .


Norm

 

[Grabber]

Well I'm going to call BS on this Motor Trend review. !2.6? Really? [ame] Here is a normal guy, hasn't drag raced till now just learning. Brand new 2018 Mustang GT PP loaded. First run 117+ mph trap speed. Second run 119+ mph trap speed. He even puts the car on a scale and shows you the weight, this is not a "hero run" by a professional in perfect conditions. This is an everyday guy who bought a brand new Mustang and is out learning how to drive it and having a blast doing it! If he can get way better results than the "professionals" at Motor Trend while he is learning to race his car...then yes I call BS on this review.

 

[jake_zx2]

^^that's an auto... big difference.

I think 12.6 is a bit slow considering motorweek got 12.4 in a manual car, but it's consistent with Car and Driver, who also got 12.6 in a manual PP

 

[millhouse]

Well I'm going to call BS on this Motor Trend review. !2.6? Really? Here is a normal guy, hasn't drag raced till now just learning. Brand new 2018 Mustang GT PP loaded. First run 117+ mph trap speed. Second run 119+ mph trap speed. He even puts the car on a scale and shows you the weight, this is not a "hero run" by a professional in perfect conditions. This is an everyday guy who bought a brand new Mustang and is out learning how to drive it and having a blast doing it! If he can get way better results than the "professionals" at Motor Trend while he is learning to race his car...then yes I call BS on this review.

There is an enormous difference between 1/4 mile times with the M6 and A10 transmission. Motor Trend ran an M6, and the faster times (including the video you linked) are running the A10.

On top of that, Motor Trend does not test on a dragstrip. Their 1/4 mile times are representative of what cars can do on the street. The dragstrip has a shit-ton of rubber on the starting line as well as VHT sprayed down to aide with traction.

With that said, 12.6 doesn't sound that far off from what the "average" joe is going to run with an M6 2018. The same Motor Trend drivers would likely run a 12.3-12.4 at the strip instead of a random piece of asphalt.

 

[B4Sunrise]

MT is garbage;
MT and C&D still pick truck of the year based on handling and 0-60 times, in other words they have no idea what makes a good truck. For example they also believe big wheels are a great idea for a 4x4, and they honestly believe no one ever takes a 4x4 off road. The same goes with the pony car segment; there is what MT can measure, then there is what makes a great car. No matter what they might say about the 1LE Camaro, it's not track ready, don't believe me, go over to Camaro 6 and check out all the suspension mod people are putting on. To be tops at each track the suspension must be modified, heck it must be modified depending on the temperature. So whether you buy a Mustang or Camaro if the suspension isn't set up for quick adjustments AND the fastest time is all you care about then you'll be heavily modifying either one. If you just want to have a good time; A Mustang GT will deliver just as well as the Camaro, best? IMO that is people that only dream of these cars worry about, once you own one, that kinda falls away, and it's because you realize you can do whatever you want with that car, it's not even that expensive to do.
Basing the winner of these cars on track times is pointless. Why do I say that? first of all SS 1LE's make up about 4% of Camaro's on the road, so they aren't even evaluating the Camaro you'll likely ever see. Perhaps MT and C&D would prefer it if we were all tracking our cars, however I'll leave that to the pros. A Mustang is a GT, and ought to be evaluated as such, frankly I'd prefer the next generation Mustang have a non-fastback version so my rear passengers have a bit more head room. Ford ought to win that competition outright; they lead that segment. GM nor FCA had a supercharged engine until Ford did it. Guess what for all the heralding of the Chevy small block, it's now clear GM is going to replace it in, at the very least the Camaro and Corvette with a DOHC V8, to be specific a 5.5L DOHC that may even be a FPC engine. Once again GM is following Ford, other than the Ford the FCA deserves credit for the success of the Challenger, which may well outsell the Camaro this year.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Well I'm going to call BS on this Motor Trend review. !2.6? Really? Here is a normal guy, hasn't drag raced till now just learning.

You cannot use drag racing times and speeds to evaluate the validity of anybody's road course review. Not even if you take the transmission variable out of the equation. The required driver skills are just too different, and even if you're a 'natural' at one there's no guarantee that you'd be good enough at the other to judge if anybody else was.


Norm

 

[martinjlm]

MT is garbage;
MT and C&D still pick truck of the year based on handling and 0-60 times, in other words they have no idea what makes a good truck. The same goes with the pony car segment; there is what MT can measure, then there is what makes a great car. No matter what they might say about the 1LE Camaro, it's not track ready, don't believe me, go over to Camaro 6 and check out all the suspension mod people are putting on.

You are really taking some liberties here. If you go over to Camaro6 (I pretty much live there) what you see are people putting 1LE suspension components on SS. It is R-A-R-E to see anyone upgrading(?) 1LE or ZL1 suspensions. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but we're talking unicorns, not quarter horses.

And as for Camaro not being track ready out the box? Dude, I track my SS convertible with no mods and no issues. One time I thought I was having some issues. Heard what sounded like a tea kettle on steroids from the back. Was thinking of taking the track exit to let my brakes cool. Slowed to to get ready to exit and realized it was the Audi S5 behind me whose brakes where cooking. Mine were fine.

To be tops at each track the suspension must be modified, heck it must be modified depending on the temperature. So whether you buy a Mustang or Camaro if the suspension isn't set up for quick adjustments AND the fastest time is all you care about then you'll be heavily modifying either one.

Again, you are really generalizing. When I have gone to the track I have made ZERO adjustments. I don't expect to ever need adjustments. My goal is to do as well as I can with what I have and have a blast doing it. As with any sporting activity, there is a spectrum of participants. Some are in it for fun, others take it to an extreme. Good for them. But your statements seem to imply that all take it to an extreme and therefore modifications must be made. Demonstrably not true.

If you just want to have a good time; A Mustang GT will deliver just as well as the Camaro, best?

I don't think there is a stock Mustang convertible short of a Shelby that can come anywhere near the track performance of my stock Camaro SS convertible.

IMO that is people that only dream of these cars worry about, once you own one, that kinda falls away, and it's because you realize you can do whatever you want with that car, it's not even that expensive to do.
Basing the winner of these cars on track times is pointless. Why do I say that? first of all SS 1LE's make up about 4% of Camaro's on the road, so they aren't even evaluating the Camaro you'll likely ever see. Perhaps MT and C&D would prefer it if we were all tracking our cars, however I'll leave that to the pros. A Mustang is a GT, and ought to be evaluated as such, frankly I'd prefer the next generation Mustang have a non-fastback version so my rear passengers have a bit more head room. Ford ought to win that competition outright; they lead that segment. GM nor FCA had a supercharged engine until Ford did it. Guess what for all the heralding of the Chevy small block, it's now clear GM is going to replace it in, at the very least the Camaro and Corvette with a DOHC V8, to be specific a 5.5L DOHC that may even be a FPC engine. Once again GM is following Ford, other than the Ford the FCA deserves credit for the success of the Challenger, which may well outsell the Camaro this year.

Your data to support the bold part is....? Careful....I spent 20 plus years working in GM Powertrain Planning. We worked on developing the portfolio 3 - 5 years forward and I only retired last year. Much of what I was involved in hasn't hit the streets yet. The idea that you would be "clear" on what has not been disclosed is laughable.

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