Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[JohnD]

Some of this can translate to the road. I feel like I'm going to bounce off the road and roll off jug handles without the PP suspension. The article does take notice that the independent suspension and chassis makes the car feel like front-end runs independently from the back end and creates both under steer and over steer.

And of course I agree with the sentiment that I wanted the Mustang because of the look and style, but performance wise, that 5.0 is limited and so is the chassis.

This is the one part of the comparison article that I couldn't buy into. That is not the way my car handles, it is very predictable and has no nasty habits at all. If you overdrive it the car will push but it is very difficult, with the staggered tires, to make the car oversteer, you have to really try to make that happen.

I've had issues with automotive journalists saying stuff like this before that made me question their skill at the wheel. I raced against one for a season, I met him in the pits one day and he said 'I finally get to meet you, you usually just whistle past me and I watch you disappear'. Told me all I needed to know.

I think I can find 2 seconds a lap in my car for not a lot of money, stickier tires and the Ford racing track suspension would likely do the job for a couple of banzai laps. But still, it's just not the same thing, it's still missing a bunch of stuff a balls out track car should have.

And yes, most people don't track their Mustangs. But those of us who do expect a car that can live up to the expectations, and compared to the 1LE, it doesn't. Thing is, it wouldn't have taken much to make it so with the PP2 and they didn't.

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[Norm Peterson]

For at least the last few design generations I think Ford and GM have approached the Mustang and Camaro respectively with different priorities and strategies. Ford has been content to keep the Mustang base model and GT as fairly "mainstream" cars that are quick, but still practical and comfortable enough that just about anyone can live with it as a daily driver. Chevy seems less concerned with practicality, comfort, (and visibility) and is selling cars with a narrower focus (on raw performance).

This sounds about right. But I honestly think Ford went a little too far toward "mainstream" and the performance suffered as a result. PP1 is in no way comparable to the Camaro's 1LE. The 1LE was pitched as a car for only 2% of the range of Camaro buyers, and with that as a measure the PP1 is closer to a 30, maybe 40-percenters' car and much closer to the 5th gen Camaro SS FE4 level (non-1LE). Always has been.

When the 5th gen Camaros first came out, they understeered more heavily and weren't nearly as nimble as the GT Mustangs (especially in Shelby GT - not GT500 - trim). Yes, stick axle and all. That was when the Camaro rode on the FE3 level suspension, and what the FE4 was intended to correct.

When I was younger I was fine with/preferred the Camaro approach, but now that I'm older I want something I can see out of, and fit stuff in the trunk, and has nicer materials, etc. And where I live, I'm stuck in traffic most of the time, and have no access to any real tracks, so I'm probably never going to drive the car at more than 7/10ths of its potential anyway.

I get this and why people's preferences might change over time.

But even as an older guy myself I'd still trade away the "nicer materials" (and if "etc." is code for "features", all of that too) for the better-performing chassis in the corners every time. I'd rather have the composed feel of the car that has the higher performance even when I'm not using anywhere near all of it. I'm not sure I can explain why.


For this MT comparo, Ford basically sent their JV team to the bowl . . .


Norm

 

[brendon]

Every time I see another 1LE vs. GT PP comparison it's like nobody compares realistic price. I'm not speaking for the 18 but I bought my 17 GT PP for $32k Out the door with tax title tags and the extended powertrain warranty. The 1LE was going for about $38k.

The Chevy is a faster car no doubt but Ford discounts their cars significantly more. I'm assuming this will hold true for the 18. Also, most people will buy the car they prefer. Most buyers with a strong opinion on brand image probably decided which of themustang/camaro/dodge they wanted a long time ago.

If people still need to measure their junk, the Mustang has dominated sales since 2011 so obviously it's doing something right. I'm not really a brand person but I like the mustang. I like the gt350 as well but honestly preferred the ZL1 from an interior standpoint. GM has been doing a good job of offering cars better equipped for the track and standing behind their warranties as well. Also, as far as lightweight v8 offerings I've been looking at used z51 c7's since they've been getting near the $40k mark used.

 

[UAmach1]

Every time I see another 1LE vs. GT PP comparison it's like nobody compares realistic price. I'm not speaking for the 18 but I bought my 17 GT PP for $32k Out the door with tax title tags and the extended powertrain warranty. The 1LE was going for about $38k.

The Chevy is a faster car no doubt but Ford discounts their cars significantly more. I'm assuming this will hold true for the 18. Also, most people will buy the car they prefer. Most buyers with a strong opinion on brand image probably decided which of themustang/camaro/dodge they wanted a long time ago.

If people still need to measure their junk, the Mustang has dominated sales since 2011 so obviously it's doing something right. I'm not really a brand person but I like the mustang. I like the gt350 as well but honestly preferred the ZL1 from an interior standpoint. GM has been doing a good job of offering cars better equipped for the track and standing behind their warranties as well. Also, as far as lightweight v8 offerings I've been looking at used z51 c7's since they've been getting near the $40k mark used.

Well an '18 1LE can be had for 42k. Not sure what an '18 PP2 will go for right now. I only know of 1 sold, and one on a lot 401a+PP2 for 47.5.

 

[Dudie7]

yea they wanted a cheaper car with huge blowout sales to get rid of the outdated car. its kinda sad when you can't just admit something is better then what you have, perfect example is a Harley, ride like crap, no power, expensive but they sell, why cause its a Harley not cause its the better option. ford is choosing to play catch up and not one up, they are just getting in line with the straight line performance and still get beat on the track by gm, and they've had the most time to study the competion

That doesn't even begin to explain the sales dominance since the S550 came out. But, you know, whatever. I chuckle when I hear "better car". Better performer? Yes. But there's more to it than that (Besides, If I want to make it perform better, I can take care of that no problem). It's much harder to make the car look better, have better functionality, etc.

 

[millhouse]

my point was that gm offers more cars that competes with each other. you wanna say mustangs destroy in sales when thats all ford has to offer, with gm thats not the case. many different option lead to less sales of each. and honestly anyone who uses the sales of the mustang to give it a win is like s child throwing a tratrum that there toy isn't the newest. sales mean nothing one how a car performs. the camaro wins in performance in everyway since the gen6 came out

People (far and away) choose the mustang over the camaro plain and simple. They choose it year in and year out despite it typically under-performing compared to the camaro.

And none of this has anything to do with the corvette.

 

[tyler2k]

Well an '18 1LE can be had for 42k. Not sure what an '18 PP2 will go for right now. I only know of 1 sold, and one on a lot 401a+PP2 for 47.5.

had a price for a 1le 40k otd , for a pp2 i couldn't get under 46k

 

[thill444]

my point was that gm offers more cars that competes with each other. you wanna say mustangs destroy in sales when thats all ford has to offer, with gm thats not the case. many different option lead to less sales of each. and honestly anyone who uses the sales of the mustang to give it a win is like s child throwing a tratrum that there toy isn't the newest. sales mean nothing one how a car performs. the camaro wins in performance in everyway since the gen6 came out

As a Corvette owner I will tell you, and so will most GM salespeople, that Corvette buyers and Camaro buyers are typically different groups. Now your probably right that a few people who were looking to buy a base Stingray might be enticed to instead buy a 2SS or 1LE but it's not many. Corvette guys (not me) typically look down on Camaro and Mustang owners as "muscle car" buyers and consider the Corvette to be a sportscar.

Right or wrong it's the way it is. The 6th Gen Camaro and S550 Mustang are started GM to break that stigma but it exists.

 

[tyler2k]

People (far and away) choose the mustang over the camaro plain and simple. They choose it year in and year out despite it typically under-performing compared to the camaro.

And none of this has anything to do with the corvette.

so you don't think if gm only offered a camaro, no ctsv no vet, the camaro wouldn't sell way more

 

[thill444]

had a price for a 1le 40k otd , for a pp2 i couldn't get under 46k

All you need to order a PP2 is the base Mustang with the 301A package. With nothing else and typicall discounts you should be right around $40K or so. $46 means they were loadi g the car up or giving you no discount. Look into Koons they are offering crazy prices on new Mustangs.

 

[tyler2k]

All you need to order a PP2 is the base Mustang with the 301A package. With nothing else and typicall discounts you should be right around $40K or so. $46 means they were loadi g the car up or giving you no discount. Look into Koons they are offering crazy prices on new Mustangs.

it was a base one and i talked to them at the time they refused to budge, i went to 8 different dealers all the same story

 

[thill444]

That doesn't even begin to explain the sales dominance since the S550 came out. But, you know, whatever. I chuckle when I hear "better car". Better performer? Yes. But there's more to it than that (Besides, If I want to make it perform better, I can take care of that no problem). It's much harder to make the car look better, have better functionality, etc.

Exactly, The Camaro is the better performer at the track and the Ford is just an all around better car. Most people buy these cars to daily drive hence why Ford sells way more Mustangs.

 

[thill444]

I am jot seeing any 1LE's for $40K out the door. GM discounts suck right now although if you own a Mustang I think there is an incentive. I am only seeing $2-3K off MSRP in my area.

 

[tyler2k]

I am jot seeing any 1LE's for $40K out the door. GM discounts suck right now although if you own a Mustang I think there is an incentive. I am only seeing $2-3K off MSRP in my area.

check out koons with pdr

 

[millhouse]

so you don't think if gm only offered a camaro, no ctsv no vet, the camaro wouldn't sell way more

You can't get take models out of GM's lineup. If the corvette didn't exist, there is a damn good chance Ford or another automaker would have something in that market.

So to answer your question, no...I don't think the camaro would sell "way" more. The only way the camaro sells "way" more is if the mustang and challenger disappear.

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