Hypergate and Eboost

[ProChargerTECH]

Not trying to be a D here but you continually keep walking past my original question and disagreement.

Actually, you kinda are... it's a little frustrating.

I literally WORK for a company that builds superchargers.
I have access to some of the best testing equipment around.
(thanks to our industrial division)

And I keep telling you the same thing....
The more boost you "bleed" the more drive load goes into the belt.
The belt is attached to the crank, so thus adds stress.

Not to mention the teeth inside the gearbox of the blower.
They are NOT designed for that kinda stress.

I don't care about testing blower efficiency, flow rates, outlet pressures, and whats its like to drive around with a boost leak.

A wastegate IS a boost leak... it's exactly that.

A 17psi 3.85" pulley setup making 1000whp and a 10psi 3.85" wastegated setup making 700whp have the identical chance of failing, has nothing to do with it being wastegated.

That couldn't be further from the truth.




I have said what I needed to say...
I have no reason to keep posting in this thread.
So I will say it one last time....


1) Bleeding a little boost = OK
2) Bleeding a lot... risky to the blower, risky on your crank, hard on belts.
3) Thats the end of the story.

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[TooSoonJunior]

I appreciate your patience and keeping thing to facts.

Last comment I would make is the theory completely falls apart unless you also agree that IN ALL non-wot conditions, with the bypass fully open, everyone is creating enormous stress to the crank at all cruising speeds. In that scenario, the blower has near 0% efficiency and is creating MAXIMUM load to the crank, none of the blowers power making ability is being used.

Wouldn't you think someone cruising light throttle for 2-3 hours and hitting 5k shifting would be seeing massive failure rates? That's not just a LITTLE boost being leaked, that's ALL of it.

 

[SolarFlare]

I kinda agree on that last part, was thinking about it yesterday. If the theory holds true and lots of bleed off= lots of stress then a 1/4 mile pull letting off in 4th at 7000 and having that maximum rejection of load is when the crank is most likely to fail.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

I appreciate your patience and keeping thing to facts.

Last comment I would make is the theory completely falls apart unless you also agree that IN ALL non-wot conditions, with the bypass fully open, everyone is creating enormous stress to the crank at all cruising speeds. In that scenario, the blower has near 0% efficiency and is creating MAXIMUM load to the crank, none of the blowers power making ability is being used.

Wouldn't you think someone cruising light throttle for 2-3 hours and hitting 5k shifting would be seeing massive failure rates? That's not just a LITTLE boost being leaked, that's ALL of it.

WOT isn't the same as cruising around.
Not to mention that you don't cruise at 7,000rpm

Again, I have no issues with people using them, when used correctly.
AKA, just a mild amount of boost bled off.


But I am talking about the guy that wants 10psi,
But he pullied it for MAX rpm, and then is trying to bleed off like 10+psi.
All over the forums complaining about belt slip, broken stuff, etc.
(and those are the type of things I have been dealing with since like 2003)



Again, wastegates and controllers are cheap.
But there is a reason why this isn't more common.

Done right, its pretty neat.
Done wrong, its headaches.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

I kinda agree on that last part, was thinking about it yesterday. If the theory holds true and lots of bleed off= lots of stress then a 1/4 mile pull letting off in 4th at 7000 and having that maximum rejection of load is when the crank is most likely to fail.

Yup, and thats exactly where blowers fail....
(or the burnout box).... cause the rpm's are high and the BOV is wide open.
The highest load hit to the bearings and gears.

So yes, I 100% agree with you...

 

[SolarFlare]

Yup, and thats exactly where blowers fail....
(or the burnout box).... cause the rpm's are high and the BOV is wide open.
The highest load hit to the bearings and gears.

So yes, I 100% agree with you...

Im never letting off at the end of the track again :shrug:

Although I'm thinking that's got more to do with the rapid building of pressure before the throttle blade counteracting on the normal rotation of blower and crank. Kinda like a brake on the system. This same rapid pressure rise, countering blower rotation, is what causes charge pipes to blow off on dynos. In my opinion the only thing that safes the crank from shattering stresses is belt slip, those that don't give the belt that little slack both in acceleration and deceleration are the ones that end up damaging cranks and blower gears.

 

[Slamdcoop0428]

I am going to track test my MT82 car with and without the Gate and I will reply with my ET and mph. [MENTION=21672]Slamdcoop0428[/MENTION] or [MENTION=18427]ALLKHEINZ[/MENTION] any idea what boost you're seeing with the 20% lower and 2.95 pulley? I need to figure out the pulley combo (impeller RPM) for 15-16 psi peak boost at 7500 rpm with the JT-b. Then I will pulley down and throw on the Gate with the 15 psi springs and hit the same track with hopefully similar DA...

My pulley combo 3.33/20% OD has seen 17psi at around 7800rpm from the previous owner. A 2.95 is going to be over 20 id imagine with a 20% lower. But its all relative to high you rev it.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Im never letting off at the end of the track again :shrug:

Ha, its not like they are that fragile.. lol

I was just pointing out the fact that the two hardest things on a blower are those two things. Making boost = easy

 

[SolarFlare]

[MENTION=11041]ProChargerTECH[/MENTION]....do you guys sell a crank adapter larger than the 8" that comes on your stage 2 for our cars?

 

[beefcake]

we have used a manual boost controller with our wastegate setup before, and i've had a few guys add electronic boost controllers as well.

as far as "crank load", a vortech / paxton setup uses the oem tensioner, and as far as and pulling effect their is 0 more, the crank has no idea that the blower is there in that respect as it is completely oem

my 2011 car we probably had 500 passes minimum on it and never had a crank issue, i am making 1150 rwhp on the stock crank on our 2015, and again, 0 issues.

and i know some like to defunkt that we do more blower kits than anyone, but we really do. just paxton vortech alonge i probably have 600+ cars on the road now, and have never seen any crank issues.

i think i have seen 1 coyote in 8 years with a vortech/paxton brake a crank and i'm 99.999% sure that was a balancer install issue.

 

[Travis@boostworks]

A centrifugal superchargers load is mainly produced by rpm, not boost pressure. The higher you spin it, the more horsepower it takes to drive.

 

[markmurfie]

Saying the crank doesnt even notice the blower is there is very misleading.

Yeah when the engine is off and the pulley is not rotating and pulling on the belt to rotate the accessories the crank doesnt even know the blower is there as all it sees is belt tension.

When the pulley is spinning and needing to pull on the belt and all turn the accessory pulleys it does see the extra load. The Radius of the crank pulley is its leverage. Just like when you draw extra electrical power the alternator increases the load on the crank pulley through the belt or when the AC clutch engages, the same goes for the blower. The difference being the blower has an efficiency chart for two factors, the amount of air its moving and the ratio of pressure at the inlet and pressure at the outlet. The more efficient the blower is moving air the less load its pulley will transfer through the belt to the crank pulley(the one doing all the work). Any blower is always going to increase load on the crank pulley. The more air the blower is moving and the more out of its efficiency range the heavier the load. If the load from all accessories combined gets too heavy for the friction between belt and pulley it slips(dedicated belt helps), If the load from all accessories combined gets to heavy for the belt to pull it breaks(dedicated belt helps), If the load from all accessories combined gets to heavy and the crank bolt cant hold the force exerted on the leverage of the pulley offset it breaks (adding a dedicated belt increases offset and leverage force on the bolt).

Using the OEM crank and pulley system you have more chance of belt slip and breakage than crank bolt failure. The extra load on it from a gated system is still there its just more likely you will see those issues first.

 

[MyLilPony]

Just swapped to my 4.75 pulley and locked the wastegate, car feels slow AF now until 5500...

My computer blue screened so I can't look at my logs to see how things look but at 7700 I am at 12psi in 3rd. If the logs look good I'll take it to the dyno before I disappear for 2 weeks again to see if it was the wastegate causing the horsepower fall off above 6500.

I really wish I could justify building the motor right now and just running a 4.38 pulley full time. The torqe loss in the mid-rpm range is drastic between the two pulleys :(

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