Hypergate and Eboost

[ProChargerTECH]

I don't really agree on the load question. Its a belt driven system, the amount of horsepower to drive the blower GOES UP with more resistance/boost. Creating a boost leak reduces the amount of resistance and the amount of energy to drive the blower the same rpm is lower.

I am not here to debate or make you "agree"

I am telling you basic fundamentals of compressor dynamics.

I literally do this all day, every day and have for 15+ years.
You don't have to trust me on this, there are thousands of documents you can read via google on it.
It applies to all sorts of compressors other than superchargers.

Careful though, once you start reading all those fun engineering papers, its like a rabbit hole.
Its hard to stop sometimes. so much good info out there.

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[rainmaker]

I am not here to debate or make you "agree"

I am telling you basic fundamentals of compressor dynamics.

I literally do this all day, every day and have for 15+ years.
You don't have to trust me on this, there are thousands of documents you can read via google on it.
It applies to all sorts of compressors other than superchargers.

Careful though, once you start reading all those fun engineering papers, its like a rabbit hole.
Its hard to stop sometimes. so much good info out there.

I still don't completely understand the dynamics yet but I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. How about analysis of compressor maps ;-) I understand the flow (CFM) and pressure ratio but how do I interpret the impeller rpm? Is impeller rpm parallel to the x-axis and how would I approximate 55,000 rpm and 1400 CFM = what pressure ratio??

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0780/8575/files/V-7_JT-B_T1384.pdf?16328752771289603144

 

[ProChargerTECH]

I still don't completely understand the dynamics yet but I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. How about analysis of compressor maps ;-) I understand the flow (CFM) and pressure ratio but how do I interpret the impeller rpm? Is impeller rpm parallel to the x-axis and how would I approximate 55,000 rpm and 1400 CFM = what pressure ratio??

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0780/8575/files/V-7_JT-B_T1384.pdf?16328752771289603144

That link basically showcases exactly what I am talking about.

Look at how drastically efficiency falls off as you move to the right and down.
It drops like a ROCK..... 70, 65, 60 and falling.

If you wastegated it you would land in the sub 50% or worse area.
Due to the high flow, and low pressure ratio

And thats not even talking about drive power being taken from the crank.

 

[kcc0521]

It would be interesting to know how many cars with broken cranks have a wastegate on them. the one vortech S550 that broke a crank had a wastegate on it. I am finding it hard to understand how it increases the load on the crank though since the blower speed is limited to the RPM. I could see how the pressure changes due to wastegate opening and closing could shock the compressor and or crank by taking load on and off quickly.

 

[SolarFlare]

You would think the higher the PSI on the outlet of the blower the harder it has to work to pump that air out therefore if you open a wastegate and blower discharge pressure lowers, its able to pump easier and therefore less load on the crank. Now there's likely added forces due to the increased speed of the blower with smaller pulleys, whether these forces cancel each other out I don't know. I would also since the more air the blower is moving the higher loading on deceleration on the crank as the throttle closes and the BOV opens.

Regardless I don't plan to run a wastegate, I chose a blower due to simplicity. No boost surprises, its predictable, if I wanted to run wastegates I would've gone turbo.

 

[ahl395]

Just chiming in here. I had a 4.75" Pulley on a P1X which saw 13psi @ 7500. I recently installed a wastegate @ 12psi, 3.85" pulley and the power difference is incredible. Definitely very noticeable, much more power sooner. Personally I recommend it to anyone with a centri.

Spinning the blower faster means more load on the crank/engine, that will take away more hp, but your making much more boost at lower rpms so you cant notice it. I'm sure it stresses the crank more, but no more than running a 3.85" pulley non-wastegated. It may make the blower less efficient, but it still adds power (at least in lower rpms)

If my crank snaps or my engine implodes because of it I will make a thread at the time, but for now I'm loving the wastegate 100%. Very noticeable difference in power. :headbonk: More info on it in page 3 of my build log if anyone's interested.

 

[markmurfie]

When I cover my vaccum the motor bogs down and works harder, uncovered is spins faster and easier. Comparing to an efficiency chart, pressure ratio spikes as I cover the inlet and inlet absolute pressure drops into more vaccum(smaller denominator means bigger number), air flow also drops. This would be moving the equivalent up and left to a very inefficient range very quickly where the lines are near vertical. Efficiency is lost as more pressure ratio results in little to no airflow gain. This is the complete opposite of what a waste gated blower does. Besides my vacuums have all burnt out when they clogged up, not right after I unclogged them.

Efficiency is work(produced)/work(put in) which looks much like the pressure ratio in the efficiency charts.

To achieve the lower pressure ratio of a gated setup, work (produced) will be less for the same work (put in) or work(produced) will be the same for more work(put in). If you are not too far off the efficiency of the blower you will be ok, Most people can intuitively understand this. What is hard for people to understand is the further you go the more work needs to be done to make up for the lack of efficiency. This is what pro-charger tech is trying to explain. A few psi wasted is probably OK, but go too much and you will run into problems.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

I am not here to debate or make you "agree"

I am telling you basic fundamentals of compressor dynamics.

I literally do this all day, every day and have for 15+ years.
You don't have to trust me on this, there are thousands of documents you can read via google on it.
It applies to all sorts of compressors other than superchargers.

Careful though, once you start reading all those fun engineering papers, its like a rabbit hole.
Its hard to stop sometimes. so much good info out there.

No research or thousands of documents show the "sudden massive addition of load" nor any info on increased load at the crank that would cause a failure. That's a connection that is completely failing to be accomplished. I agree entirely of the efficiency loss, that's an obvious point and no one including me is arguing.

Any research that measures the load difference of an engine, tested with the identical pulley, measured once wastgated and one not? If not, it's complete conjecture

 

[ProChargerTECH]

You would think the higher the PSI on the outlet of the blower the harder it has to work to pump that air out therefore if you open a wastegate and blower discharge pressure lowers, its able to pump easier and therefore less load on the crank.

Opposite.....

Just chiming in here. I had a 4.75" Pulley on a P1X which saw 13psi @ 7500. I recently installed a wastegate @ 12psi, 3.85" pulley and the power difference is incredible. Definitely very noticeable, much more power sooner. Personally I recommend it to anyone with a centri.

Careful with recommending something that is...

1) Hard on cranks
2) Hard on blowers
3) Hard on belts.

I understand that it works, but people need to know the risks.

Otherwise I get the messages "why did my blower break"
And I spend 3 days digging into what could have caused it...
Only to find it was wastegated and bleeding off 10psi of boost.

To achieve the lower pressure ratio of a gated setup, work (produced) will be less for the same work (put in) or work(produced) will be the same for more work(put in). If you are not too far off the efficiency of the blower you will be ok, Most people can intuitively understand this. What is hard for people to understand is the further you go the more work needs to be done to make up for the lack of efficiency. This is what pro-charger tech is trying to explain. A few psi wasted is probably OK, but go too much and you will run into problems.

Thank you.

Any research that measures the load difference of an engine, tested with the identical pulley, measured once wastgated and one not? If not, it's complete conjecture

We have a four chamber aerodynamic test cell, and two dedicated engines for running in blowers. TRUST ME, we got enough data to choke harddrives.

But, if you want to find out.... the easy way....

1) Take the discharge tube off your blower.
2) Floor car.
3) Enjoy getting smoked by a Prius.

NOTE: There are some factors that would have to be done to do that properly, such as a non-restrictive inlet to the TB with proper MAF calibration. But trust me... I have done it. ...... AKA, blowing a tube off a race car. = instant turd

 

[cpelaez1]

[MENTION=10926]beefcake[/MENTION] thoughts on this?

 

[kcc0521]

[MENTION=10926]beefcake[/MENTION] thoughts on this?

I doubt you will get unbiased opinion from anyone selling wastegates. I can see how the wastegat helps seat of the pants on daily driving but i would be curious how much faster it would be on a stick car with slicks or an auto car with a stall at same boost level.

 

[Slamdcoop0428]

I doubt you will get unbiased opinion from anyone selling wastegates. I can see how the wastegat helps seat of the pants on daily driving but i would be curious how much faster it would be on a stick car with slicks or an auto car with a stall at same boost level.

I have a 3.33 and 20% OD lower. Before with the 2200sl it made 7.4psi at 5900. Now im making 10psi at 5800rpm. It comes in so much faster and thats what pulleys do. My wastgate is set to bleed boost at 15psi. i can see from my logs that the gate isnt even opening until 7100 or so and the boost starts to level off. My car shifts around 7600.

 

[Slamdcoop0428]

Once i go all out with a built motor i'll ditch the gate. The gate has nothing to do with how fast boost comes in. I use it to keep my stock motor in check around 15psi. As most know ive been taking weight out of my car to go faster now.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

We have a four chamber aerodynamic test cell, and two dedicated engines for running in blowers. TRUST ME, we got enough data to choke harddrives.

But, if you want to find out.... the easy way....

1) Take the discharge tube off your blower.
2) Floor car.
3) Enjoy getting smoked by a Prius.

NOTE: There are some factors that would have to be done to do that properly, such as a non-restrictive inlet to the TB with proper MAF calibration. But trust me... I have done it. ...... AKA, blowing a tube off a race car. = instant turd

Not trying to be a D here but you continually keep walking past my original question and disagreement.

I don't care about testing blower efficiency, flow rates, outlet pressures, and whats its like to drive around with a boost leak.

I want to see your hard test data that shows crank shaft stress, such as deflection measurements, metallurgic testing for cracks, deformity, etc, between a wastegated and non wastedgated setup, all else equal.

You don't have that, all you have is conjecture that as the efficacy of the blower drops you can expect to have your crank snout snap off. Its a huge leap, one that I believe is wrong to make without data.

The only leap I see even relevant you COULD make is regardless of wastegated or not, the coyote crank may begin to fail when driving a blower to very high speeds, such as a high boost application or an overdriven wastegated setup. It is not specifically that it is wastegated, just a function of pure blower speeds. A 17psi 3.85" pulley setup making 1000whp and a 10psi 3.85" wastegated setup making 700whp have the identical chance of failing, has nothing to do with it being wastegated.

 

[rainmaker]

I am going to track test my MT82 car with and without the Gate and I will reply with my ET and mph. [MENTION=21672]Slamdcoop0428[/MENTION] or [MENTION=18427]ALLKHEINZ[/MENTION] any idea what boost you're seeing with the 20% lower and 2.95 pulley? I need to figure out the pulley combo (impeller RPM) for 15-16 psi peak boost at 7500 rpm with the JT-b. Then I will pulley down and throw on the Gate with the 15 psi springs and hit the same track with hopefully similar DA...

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