Oil Pump Gerotor

[GBGT350]

More a curiosity than anything else. Does anyone know if our gerotor is aluminum like the standard coyote or it is made of billet steel? I know this is a weal point of the coyote and I know our engines operate at much higher RPM's and vibrate much more. I am just curious if Ford used a stronger material for our engines.

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[machsmith]

Haha...we've had a long thread about this where we all showed our opinions.

Powdered metal gear.

 

[GBGT350]

That's disappointing. For a vehicle that costs in excess of $60K+ I wonder how much additional cost it would have added to the vehicle if Ford had switched to a billet steel gerotor? That certainly is depressing.

 

[Lexluther]

Ford said they did tests and the powdered metal was within engineering limits of the GT350 in its intended stock trim power levels.

The cost would of been a lot! Powdered metal is just that its powder thats layed down with plastics in a 3D printer. Than the part goes into a furnace where the metal is sintered the plastic burns off and the metal powder is close to its melting point and bonds to itself. The part obviously shrinks to a predetermined degree thats engineered. A metal 3D printer is 1/2 million dollars. To redo the process for standard forging would of increased the cost 10 fold. That number is pre-established cost savings published from forging to 3D printing. Ford and BMW are at the forefront of 3D printing car parts. BMW has been doing it for 20yrs and Ford was doing it for rapid prototyping and now for production.

Costs are getting cheaper this year at SEMA a $99K metal 3D printer was unveiled making it the cheapest to date. They can do inconel stainless and even titanium now in 3D printers and testing on 6061 aluminum where it keeps its strength. The idea is to get to tool strengths since good tools are expensive and the Chinese brands are putting them out of business. With mfg. cost being equivalent the US producers would win out due to shipping and import costs. Also the product would be more consistent as a laser is checking it every step of the way. The printers can run 24x7 and you only need humans to put the material in and pull the final product out.

Were getting closer to the movie Terminator where the machines build themselves and human slaves just feed them the materials.

 

[machsmith]

A company I do a lot of work for has 3d printers. 3 of them that ran 100k a few years ago. I pump out machined parts much faster and at at closer tolerances. They only use their 3d machines for parts that aren't closer than .01, aren't cosmetic and R&D

 

[GBGT350]

Ford said they did tests and the powdered metal was within engineering limits of the GT350 in its intended stock trim power levels.

The cost would of been a lot! Powdered metal is just that its powder thats layed down with plastics in a 3D printer. Than the part goes into a furnace where the metal is sintered the plastic burns off and the metal powder is close to its melting point and bonds to itself. The part obviously shrinks to a predetermined degree thats engineered. A metal 3D printer is 1/2 million dollars. To redo the process for standard forging would of increased the cost 10 fold. That number is pre-established cost savings published from forging to 3D printing. Ford and BMW are at the forefront of 3D printing car parts. BMW has been doing it for 20yrs and Ford was doing it for rapid prototyping and now for production.

Costs are getting cheaper this year at SEMA a $99K metal 3D printer was unveiled making it the cheapest to date. They can do inconel stainless and even titanium now in 3D printers and testing on 6061 aluminum where it keeps its strength. The idea is to get to tool strengths since good tools are expensive and the Chinese brands are putting them out of business. With mfg. cost being equivalent the US producers would win out due to shipping and import costs. Also the product would be more consistent as a laser is checking it every step of the way. The printers can run 24x7 and you only need humans to put the material in and pull the final product out.

Were getting closer to the movie Terminator where the machines build themselves and human slaves just feed them the materials.

I hear ya. I mean if the part was an additional $200 because Ford purchased them in bulk it would seem like a good idea to me.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I hear ya. I mean if the part was an additional $200 because Ford purchased them in bulk it would seem like a good idea to me.

More expensive doesn't necessarily mean "better". Powdered metal gears are very durable and have very precise tolerances. This is essential for the high oil pressure necessary in these Voodoo engines. A billet machined pump would have been stronger, but would make less pressure unless VERY EXPENSIVE machining tolerances were used.

 

[Zombo]

This is probably old news, but the latest Aluminator-XS uses a VooDoo block and has a billet OPG.

http://performance.ford.com/enthusi...k-at-the-5-2l-aluminator-xs-crate-engine.html

 

[machsmith]

More expensive doesn't necessarily mean "better". Powdered metal gears are very durable and have very precise tolerances. This is essential for the high oil pressure necessary in these Voodoo engines. A billet machined pump would have been stronger, but would make less pressure unless VERY EXPENSIVE machining tolerances were used.

You make it sound like a million dollar part haha. cost of mfg...possibly $200 with a $250 mark up. How about $450.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

You make it sound like a million dollar part haha. cost of mfg...possibly $200 with a $250 mark up. How about $450.

Modern car companies are all about the value proposition.
Powdered metal parts are quite durable, but mostly they are VERY accurate from a manufacturing standpoint. The Voodoo requires high oil pressure. It even has its own unique oil filter SKU accordingly. To get high oil pressure you need a big pump or one with very precise tolerances. Big pumps are inefficient.
It is possible to machine a billet steel pump with tight tolerances but it is hugely more expensive. So if Ford can save $200 per engine times 15000 engines, that's $3 million. Not exactly chump change.
They test the hell out of these engines, looking for possible problems. These tests are incredibly brutal. They run them for hundreds of hours at maximum rpm and under full load. If they found pump problems, they would have spent the extra money on a billet pump, just like they did with the Cobra Jet.
We imagine our GT-350s with exotic race engines containing the best components that money can buy. Nonsense. What we have is a high performance production engine, built in volume, with typical OEM cost controls.
In the end, there has been a few rumors and a lot of forum noise about GT-350 engine failures and their causes. There are actually very few failures and even fewer available facts. That's intentional. Ford keeps a lid on stuff like this, precisely because these forums are a lightning rod for wags who like nothing better than trashing a vehicle manufacturer.
It is a really fun car with a solid warranty. I bought an extended warranty. And I run the car every day, just like it was meant to be run. I don't like the piston noise. The shifter is a bit clunky. But overall it's a blast.

 

[GBGT350]

Modern car companies are all about the value proposition.
Powdered metal parts are quite durable, but mostly they are VERY accurate from a manufacturing standpoint. The Voodoo requires high oil pressure. It even has its own unique oil filter SKU accordingly. To get high oil pressure you need a big pump or one with very precise tolerances. Big pumps are inefficient.
It is possible to machine a billet steel pump with tight tolerances but it is hugely more expensive. So if Ford can save $200 per engine times 15000 engines, that's $3 million. Not exactly chump change.
They test the hell out of these engines, looking for possible problems. These tests are incredibly brutal. They run them for hundreds of hours at maximum rpm and under full load. If they found pump problems, they would have spent the extra money on a billet pump, just like they did with the Cobra Jet.
We imagine our GT-350s with exotic race engines containing the best components that money can buy. Nonsense. What we have is a high performance production engine, built in volume, with typical OEM cost controls.
In the end, there has been a few rumors and a lot of forum noise about GT-350 engine failures and their causes. There are actually very few failures and even fewer available facts. That's intentional. Ford keeps a lid on stuff like this, precisely because these forums are a lightning rod for wags who like nothing better than trashing a vehicle manufacturer.
It is a really fun car with a solid warranty. I bought an extended warranty. And I run the car every day, just like it was meant to be run. I don't like the piston noise. The shifter is a bit clunky. But overall it's a blast.

I understand how manufacturing works. I would disagree that a billet gerotor would produce less oil pressure. If it were produced within tolerances no loss would be had. In fact I'll almost bet that above 3,000 RPM's the oil pressure relief valve is opening to diminish oil pressure. The 5.2 aluminator uses a billet gerotor and that said it's not about not being able to product a precision gerotor it's about cost. So back to the cost factor. I would have gladly spent $200 more for this car.

I never indicated that the cause of the failure was from the powdered metal gerotor. I just know it is one of the weakest links in these motors and since this gerotor has been known to fail more frequently due to excessive vibration, and these VooDoo engines are known to vibrate, I was just making a comment that it would make more sense for Ford to have upgraded this part from the factory. I am of the same mindset that I would NOT replace this part with a billet part while under manufacturer warranty, but you had better bet your backside I will the weekend this engine goes over 60,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first.

Over time we will learn more about these engines and their life expectancy. I am looking forward to watching these engines age over time.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Just curious:

Why is a 3D "printer" needed to pop out steel parts (such as the OPG) when there's tons of specialized lathes, laser cutters, water cutters and CNC systems?

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I understand how manufacturing works. I would disagree that a billet gerotor would produce less oil pressure. If it were produced within tolerances no loss would be had. In fact I'll almost bet that above 3,000 RPM's the oil pressure relief valve is opening to diminish oil pressure. The 5.2 aluminator uses a billet gerotor and that said it's not about not being able to product a precision gerotor it's about cost. So back to the cost factor. I would have gladly spent $200 more for this car.

I never indicated that the cause of the failure was from the powdered metal gerotor. I just know it is one of the weakest links in these motors and since this gerotor has been known to fail more frequently due to excessive vibration, and these VooDoo engines are known to vibrate, I was just making a comment that it would make more sense for Ford to have upgraded this part from the factory. I am of the same mindset that I would NOT replace this part with a billet part while under manufacturer warranty, but you had better bet your backside I will the weekend this engine goes over 60,000 miles or 5 years, whichever comes first.

Over time we will learn more about these engines and their life expectancy. I am looking forward to watching these engines age over time.

Billet pumps can be built to produce the same pressure. They just costs a lot more and that's the issue. There is no credible evidence that these production engines suffer from any pump problems with powdered metal gears. I'll bet a pile of dough that they don't. The GT-350 pump is so good that it will produce nearly 50 psi at idle. That's precision.
There is no doubt in my mind that Ford considered a billet pump. But after durability testing, they likely ruled out the requirement.
In the OEM world, there is no "weakest link". The parts either stand up to the brutal testing or they don't. If they don't, they get upgraded. Is cost a consideration? Of course it is.
We all know that when you hang a blower pulley on the front of a Coyote 5.0 crank that you get more flex on the snout where the Ford oil pump is. If I was building such an engine, I would use a forged steel crank and the billet pump.
As to Aluminator crate engines, thats a whole different issue. A different team and a different group of accountants makes those decisions. The company doesn't know exactly how the engine will be used. There are some marketing issues to consider. And, last but not least, it's not a $3 million production engine decision. It's a few hundred crate motors.
Again, we all say the same thing, "I'd pay $200 more for the billet pump". Naturally. But the existing pump didn't stop any of us from buying the car. That's how it works.
Years ago, when the Ferrari Enzo was introduced, I had occasion to measure the OEM wheels on it for a project. I was utterly shocked to find that this $1.5 Million car had cast wheels on it. The rears were 19x13 and weighed 33 lbs!
We made a forged set that shaved off 40 lbs of unsprung weight.
Why not forged wheels? Because the cast wheels didn't affect sale of a single car. And that's how it works.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Just curious:

Why is a 3D "printer" needed to pop out steel parts (such as the OPG) when there's tons of specialized lathes, laser cutters, water cutters and CNC systems?

The 3D printer is just used for modeling.
Production powdered metal parts are made with dies. And the production accuracy is near perfection. The production cost is low and the production accuracy is fantastic. That's why the material and production process is so popular.

 

[olaosunt]

Billet pumps can be built to produce the same pressure. They just costs a lot more and that's the issue. There is no credible evidence that these production engines suffer from any pump problems with powdered metal gears. I'll bet a pile of dough that they don't. The GT-350 pump is so good that it will produce nearly 50 psi at idle. That's precision.
There is no doubt in my mind that Ford considered a billet pump. But after durability testing, they likely ruled out the requirement.
In the OEM world, there is no "weakest link". The parts either stand up to the brutal testing or they don't. If they don't, they get upgraded. Is cost a consideration? Of course it is.
We all know that when you hang a blower pulley on the front of a Coyote 5.0 crank that you get more flex on the snout where the Ford oil pump is. If I was building such an engine, I would use a forged steel crank and the billet pump.
As to Aluminator crate engines, thats a whole different issue. A different team and a different group of accountants makes those decisions. The company doesn't know exactly how the engine will be used. There are some marketing issues to consider. And, last but not least, it's not a $3 million production engine decision. It's a few hundred crate motors.
Again, we all say the same thing, "I'd pay $200 more for the billet pump". Naturally. But the existing pump didn't stop any of us from buying the car. That's how it works.
Years ago, when the Ferrari Enzo was introduced, I had occasion to measure the OEM wheels on it for a project. I was utterly shocked to find that this $1.5 Million car had cast wheels on it. The rears were 19x13 and weighed 33 lbs!
We made a forged set that shaved off 40 lbs of unsprung weight.
Why not forged wheels? Because the cast wheels didn't affect sale of a single car. And that's how it works.

So ,it sounds like the GT 350 pump flows significantly more than the GT pump.
Any idea how much more ?

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