PMAS Intake Systems from UPR Products. TUNE AND NO TUNE INTAKES

[mustang_guy]

I agree with above, but 108* is where it starts pulling. It interpolates up to about 150* where it pulls a full 5*. Or stops it from adding.

Could have sworn pmas said 150 it pulls or maybe i had it backwards. Either way my mistake there. Thanks for pointing out my blunder so things are kept correct. :cheers:

My apologies to everyone on that.

Sponsored

 

[BoomBoy]

Just installed mine today. Broke off 2 plastic clips from the small intake hoses. I taped them with an electrical tape. Does anyone know where I can replace them?

Here is the pic of the intake.

 

[Gibbo205]

Congrats for being below ambient? Others are too without the 350 or gt duct. The issue is this duct isnt needed. You dont know better then pmas. To pretend to is sophistry at best. Pmas has said multiple times and myself along with others that it reduces flow. The only thing pmas has said to do is open the box inlet. The piping up to it is the choking part.

So unless you are concerned about racing in bumper to bumper traffic iat worrying is a waste a time. Amount of air trumps temps up to 108. Its really that simple. Im far from cluttering the thread. Im repeating facts to you from pmas. You are posting opinions and theory which means absolutely nothing, that in fact is clutter. Im not on a high horse.

I most definitely feel your intentions are in the right place but leading people to a path of restricting part of the point of this intake is a problem and ill continue to speak up when i see you do it in a thread that isnt your build thread. Your sensors are most likely not automotive applications and can not be treated as law. They cannot be treated as accurate just because you say so. I dont doubt in your local conditions you decreased your iat temp. You have restricted your flow for iat temps. That isnt debatable. Pmas tested this with a bench. You have not nor can you. Like i said all you have is opinions and theory. Also as i said flow trumps iat temp up to 108 degrees. I have zero reasons to ignore you. Like i said you're a nice guy, but your spreading partial misinformation around which isnt okay. If you're getting offended by my posts you are adding tone to text that isnt there thats your hangup. I haven't called you names nor personally attacked you.

Your welcome to your opinion.

My IAT's have reduced a lot since opening up the hole more and adding the 350 duct.

Also I heard timing start to get pulled at 100, so is it 100 or 108 does anyone know the clear answer?

Also at what temperatures below 100or108 does the car add more timing to take advantage of colder/denser air? This seems to be something that everyone is forgetting, typically the rule in automotive industry is that every 10c lower in IAT's can be upto 3% more power, thats another 12BHP roughly.


Also flow testing is only one part of the equation, negative air pressure loses performance which the PMAS suffers from greatly with no duct and the fact it is not a 100% sealed enclosure.

Reducing negative air pressure helps improve horsepower and throttle response, if you can get to the holy grail of positive air pressure otherwise known as RAM AIR, you can see pretty good horsepower improvements.

You said its not possible to calculate flow without a flow bench, well this is true to some aspect but you can measure vacuum and pressure with a simple guauge and find a quiet road and do some testing.

Because the perfect air box setup is literally not just about flow, if that was the case then every car manufacturer, performance air filter, would just stick a huge cone filter in the engine bay with no heat shield to restrict flow. But guess what THEY DO NOT. The reason for this:

The perfect CAI

- gives maximum flow (no negative pressure - like a PMAS with no heat shield)
- delivers only cool air (like stock sealed air box with ducting)
- high positive pressure (like a stock sealed air box with ducting)
- minimises bugs, dirt and no water


So PMAS only has two of the above covered, excellent flow and no risk of bugs/water.

But when it comes to only cool air and positive pressure the PMAS is lacking. What I am doing is trying to improve on the PMAS design a little by reducing intake temperatures and increasing positive air pressure without sacrificing flow.

My duct and larger opening with the grill opened up are not restricting flow once the vehicle has momentum, infact I have reduced negative pressure, though I am still far from positive pressure one could get with a sealed air box. Though I have some ideas to direct even more cold air to the box, increase flow beyond the original design and further reduce negative pressure.

PMAS does not do this because it becomes a more involving install and potentially even more ugly and of course would increase cost of the unit, so I am doing this not because PMAS designed their intake wrong, but simply to improve things further and to just be of the opinion that the PMAS is perfect and cannot be further improved is pretty narrow minded.

We are all car enthusiast and we all enjoy modding and typically things can always be improved further, flow testing is only one part of a decent intake, as mentioned above in a perfect world we want flow, cooler IAT's and reducing negative air pressure as much as positive, give the intake more air than it actually needs (positive pressure).

 

[Ultimateone]

I can't believe you are arguing with the company whose been making MAFs and intakes for years.

 

[Terminator2]

I agree with above, but 108* is where it starts pulling. It interpolates up to about 150* where it pulls a full 5*. Or stops it from adding.

This. I reduced my iat vs spark cut by Half so I pull only 2.5* at 150 and only about 1* at 110.

 

[Gibbo205]

I can't believe you are arguing with the company whose been making MAFs and intakes for years.

I am not arguing with PMAS, they have not commented.

It is clear no one here obviously understands positive and negative air pressure, this is something a flow bench cannot measure and can only be measured on the car travelling at speed.

I have literally just returned from a shop that builds race cars for a living and modifies and designs intakes for race cars where all that matter is the engine getting the correct flow. I asked for their comments on the intake and my modification:

1. Yes on a flow bench the PMAS intake will show a flow reduction with the snorkel re-added. This is something I have never dis-agreed on and neither are the guys I visited today who build race cars and have also being pit crew and engineers for Le-mans, so they really know their stuff.

2. Their take on the snorkel modification is it will improve flow, but only on a car where the snorkel remains straight (no bends) and only if the snorkel extends fully to the grill where air enters and that grill needs to be fully opened. They said any bends, any gaps in the ducting will result in less flow. But if done as it is done on my car they said flow will actually be improved once the car has momentum. They did say however for maximum flow a lot more air enters the lower grill than upper due to how air flow over a car works. They have done wind tunnel testing etc.

3. They also said the following, low temperatures are actually quite important for several reasons, further spark advance, every 10c IAT lower can add upto 3% more power due to denser air. They also went very scientific on me about the whole negative and positive air pressure and said though positive air pressure would be impossible on this intake due to its open design, you can at least reduce the negative pressure. In short they said the more air you force feed into the air box area the better. They also told me how it would be possible to create positive air pressure on the PMAS, mentioned below.


They made it very clear just having the filter with no snorkel may be great for flow and PMAS are spot on that on a flow bench this will give the best figures, but a flow bench cannot calculate flow once the car has momentum via an air direct snorkel feed. They said just as it is the filter is sucking air and all warm engine air, no air is being force fed so it is at maximum negative pressure and also less dense warm engine air.

As such a straight snorkel, they even suggested adding a second will not only improve flow, it will also help reduce negative pressure, which is a win win situation.

You guys enjoy your intakes, but our cars are not raced stationary, our cars have momentum and the correct snorkel setup can improve flow with the other benefits mentioned.

If these guys thought I was wrong they would tell me, but they build and have raced cars since the 1980's and have a lot of experience with V8's as they specialise in racing V8 jaguars both NA and FI.

They said the flow design of the PMAS is fantastic and on a flow bench yes a snorkel will limit flow, but in a moving car with a sealed duct with opened up grill it will improve flow, reduce IAT's and reduce negative pressure. If I add a secondary duct I can further improve flow and reduce negative pressure more so.

They even said if they were racing my car they would actually mould a piece of black plastic to seal the top of the air box and manufacture what else was needed to make it a complete seal and they would run the ducting as I have now, but also drill another large circular hole in the heatshield and run another large secondary duct that would take the fresh air entering the lower grill. They explained to me how air entering the engine area actually comes more so from the lower grill due to how aero-dynamics work and in fact the upper grill though it does take in air does take in less.

If you guys still don't want to believe then fine, just sharing my findings and I am very fortunate to know some very skilled people who have being building race cars and designing aero packages for cars and ensuring engines can breathe.


They said if they were to design an intake, they would copy the PMAS, but put it in an enclosed moulded air box with two large ducts, the one as I have now but moulded to the air box and then a secondary duct that would connect to heat resistance flexi hose that would run from the air box to the lower grill on the car. They said this would dramatically increase flow further, give IAT's that matched ambient, potentially lower, create positive air pressure thus creating RAM air and this would be best solution. They explained the reason PMAS do not offer this is because the cost would be considerably higher and installation a lot more difficult. Food for thought!

 

[Genxer]

I found a thread on another forum (you can find it) where a GT was fitted with a PMAS and picked up mph and dropped time in the 1/4 by a significant margin. YouTube also has a video of a Mustang being dynoed (not by PMAS) and it showed significant gains. I suspect more will be coming out as people find out about it. Guess we will see.

Remember, this tube has more 40% more cross sectional area than stock, it's massive. It isn't just a bigger piece of pipe, but one that has a matched MAF sensor (no tune version).

People tend to get caught up on IATs but what I keep thinking about is "how long does that warm air hang out before it's sucked into the engine?" You have a column of air moving all the time during acceleration, so initially the air is warmer but when you hit the gas or soon after it pulls air from outside and all over (lower IATs soon after the car gets going has been observed by a lot of people) I also believe for the same reason the material of choice for an intake tube is of little consequence. However, it certainly doesn't hurt to drop the temp where you can. I like to tinker as well. What none of us know except for experts is where you begin to see a diminishing return.

 

[joleobee]

Any labor day sales show up for the PMAS intake alone yet?

 

[NvrFinished]

Your welcome to your opinion.

PMAS does not do this because it becomes a more involving install and potentially even more ugly and of course would increase cost of the unit, so I am doing this not because PMAS designed their intake wrong, but simply to improve things further and to just be of the opinion that the PMAS is perfect and cannot be further improved is pretty narrow minded.

We are all car enthusiast and we all enjoy modding and typically things can always be improved further, flow testing is only one part of a decent intake, as mentioned above in a perfect world we want flow, cooler IAT's and reducing negative air pressure as much as positive, give the intake more air than it actually needs (positive pressure).

I've been watching the comments about this mod and what Gibbo has stated here is a very valid point.

There is a certain price point that all these manufacturer's try to obtain in order to remain competitive. PMAS is an excellent intake in my opinion, but it doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement. I'm sure PMAS would agree.

The problem, however, is that to improve on the already great design would require a whole host of modifications in order to get substantial returns on performance. After investing in research, molds, and the manufacturing process to properly enclose the air box, insure cooler air and maximum flow, I'm sure the price of the intake would more than double - and for what percentage of power gain of say, 16 rwhp? 50%? 75%? The cost for a business does not justify the means in order to stay competitive.

It's always been the home enthusiast who has worked on improving mods in order to gain performance. Hell, where would be today if it wasn't for the Vic Edelbrocks, Holley brothers, and many other examples in this industry.

Stating someone is wrong for trying to improve upon a performance part is simply implying that the part they are trying to improve upon is perfect. We all know that is not true. While we are all glad that there are a host of performance parts available for our car, we need to remember that those providing them are still a business that needs to find a way to make money doing so. And sometimes providing a very good, but still imperfect part, while maintaining a competitive price point, is what it takes to stay in business.

I applaud anyone here who wants to try and make low cost improvements and share their results. Are they scientific? Are they documented? No they are not. But it's up to the reader to evaluate such mods and make that decision on their own.

 

[DarkestHour]

Any labor day sales show up for the PMAS intake alone yet?

Lethal has 10% off with LABORDAY code

 

[joleobee]

Lethal has 10% off with LABORDAY code

 

[Sighlense]

Lethal has 10% off with LABORDAY code

Not working for some (myself included).

 

[dev1360]

Lots of people need to go back and read this thread again. PMAS has shared what they would change if they could (remove grille area, and open front of box further), and they have also discussed their testing and information on flow vs. air temp. The snorkel hurt air flow in the real world. Not on a bench.

Also, the area in front of the box, behind the grille, while far from sealed, is being supplied with a lot of fresh air while moving from the grille openings. Especially if you have opened them up further.

 

[Gibbo205]

Lots of people need to go back and read this thread again. PMAS has shared what they would change if they could (remove grille area, and open front of box further), and they have also discussed their testing and information on flow vs. air temp. The snorkel hurt air flow in the real world. Not on a bench.

Also, the area in front of the box, behind the grille, while far from sealed, is being supplied with a lot of fresh air while moving from the grille openings. Especially if you have opened them up further.

My front grill area was opened up, I even have a velossa big mouth but my IAT's were pretty crazy to be honest and it took a lot of full throttle driving to bring them back down.

So I opened the front of my box up further and added the 350 duct to give a sealed path for fresh air direct to the filter. IAT's are reduced by upto 20c and now the temperature drops back down even quicker without the need for heavy throttle.

The guys who checked my car over today even stated the flow would now be improved over before with added advantage of lower IAT and less negative pressure at the filter.

They gave their suggestions to perfect the PMAS which would vastly increase cost of the unit. I shall probaby do as they suggested though and try to add a secondary cold air feed to it in an attempt to further reduce negative pressure. If I do I shall document and post it up, once all done I shall dyno the car with hood up and hood down.

 

[Terminator2]

Lots of people need to go back and read this thread again. PMAS has shared what they would change if they could (remove grille area, and open front of box further), and they have also discussed their testing and information on flow vs. air temp. The snorkel hurt air flow in the real world. Not on a bench.

Also, the area in front of the box, behind the grille, while far from sealed, is being supplied with a lot of fresh air while moving from the grille openings. Especially if you have opened them up further.

This.

Sponsored