Real World Test by the SCCA.

[JohnnyUtah]

You missed his point. His point was that the much more track oriented cars were barely faster than the mustang. Now whether or not you think the PP is track focused or not is the main issue. They say that the GT can probably match the other two cars with more seat time. So is this a win for the mustang? Maybe. It's what we all already knew. The 1LE and now the 6th gen camaro are way more performance oriented from the factory than the mustang is, but it still performs pretty decently regardless.

Edit: I'm not defending the weight stuff. It is a little out there lol. We all are well aware of how they saved weight on the camaro coupe.

No, I got the point. My point is that this test is an autocross and doesn't accurately reflect results on a roadcourse at all.

Here's the results from the latest autocross near me that the BMW club holds: http://sdbmwcca.org/autocross/results/2016-01-16#CTIMES

4 of the 5 top spots were Miatas. Faster than a GT3, z06, and c7 vette. Does that prove that a Miata can hang with those cars on track? According to this thread it does.

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[thePill]

Is the point of this thread the 16' Camaro SS wasn't put into a different class comparing the Mustang Gt?
What is the time separation moving to a faster class in such a short course?
Sorry for the Inexperienced post but I am a SCCA beginner.

Yeah, two points really...

Real World results contradict magazine results and the 2016 SS classed in FS.

For some reason people take it personal beyond reason. Belief disconfirmation paradigm maybe... in fact it's very likely.

The SCCA conducts these TNT's quite often. Many of the people arguing the results are just now finding that out... thePill discussed this months ago but it was dismissed as insanity and lies.

The 2015 GT did very well last year and, just as they have always done, they conduct test to ensure the vehicles belong there. The 2016 SS belongs in FS because it is no faster than the 1LE.

0.2 seconds between the 1LE and Premium GT makes people uncomfortable.

 

[thePill]

You missed his point. His point was that the much more track oriented cars were barely faster than the mustang. Now whether or not you think the PP is track focused or not is the main issue. They say that the GT can probably match the other two cars with more seat time. So is this a win for the mustang? Maybe. It's what we all already knew. The 1LE and now the 6th gen camaro are way more performance oriented from the factory than the mustang is, but it still performs pretty decently regardless.

Edit: I'm not defending the weight stuff. It is a little out there lol. We all are well aware of how they saved weight on the camaro coupe.

I think the weight was brought up once the performance arguement was lost.

I know how they shed 200lbs... I just didn't think they would with the Mustang and Vette moving up. It last gen stuff and it's not selling...

The GT's outperformed the 1LE last season. This test just proves the GT isn't over powered or hold an advantage.

 

[thePill]

Why not?
"Right where the ATS-V is at, 3820lbs...

The ATS-V has 20lbs in engine, 15lbs in brake and 35lbs in stereo... that's it...

The SS's 245/275/20's are probably 40lbs heavier than the V's and the radiators are probably 15lbs more... the BIW is about 40lbs heavier...

The 2SS has the ATS-V's stereo, minus a speaker I think so, that 35lbs is actually in your car. MRC is a wash and NPP is suppose to be 9lbs lighter... but not lighter than the ATS-V's.

So, as you can see, the Camaro could end up being heavier... unless you can point to an area that the ATS-V makes that back up... That is 80-90lbs missing that can't be accounted for. 110-130lbs when talking 1SS.

I am all ears, I need to see where exactly the 125lbs came from...

If you believe a 3670lbs 1SS, you need to tell me how it got there. Because that is a lot of weight to just vanish ya' know."


"Do you still think a Camaro SS is 130lbs lighter than an ATS-V? you poor man, washed as all can be..."



"Have you ever truly considered what you are asking Chevy to do? The Camaro is larger in every direction and has heavier equipment with the exception of front brakes and stereo. The Camaro wheels and coolers eat that back up. Maybe IF the ATS-V was really 3700lbs then I could see a Camaro finding enough for a 15lbs difference... but 110-140lbs now????"

"If you honestly believe the 2016 Camaro is 110-130lbs lighter than the ATS-V, God bless ya'."

"I put numbers up, that is my bet...

My numbers eventually come to be known as fact...

...that is the only thing I want to win..."

"I said the 1SS would be 3780-3820lbs. It will probably end up at 3803lbs (as I was led to believe)."

"I have serious doubts you are confident in GM. You are as likely to get a 3700lbs SS as you are a 3700lbs ATS-V... and remember, Chevy is using actual preproduction cars in Head 2 Heads... yippie!!! Who knows what's turned up in these examples."

"GM never told you any of that did they... and a critical piece of the puzzle.

Maybe, MAYBE the 1SS can get a 20lbs advantage over the ATS-V's 3809lbs..."




This is why you cannot ever ever ever talk about weight. And this, I am sure, the reason you have been gone for the last few months. You were wrong. Wrong....wrong wrong lol.

The ATS and ATS-V is a far superior vehicle than the Camaro. It is built on a shorter wheelbase and is far more rigid overall. You are fully aware the ATS-V gained weight in the last few months. It went from 3730 to 3820lbs and thePill busted them himself. Chevy didn't feel they needed to support you crazy person :lol:

The Camaro is missing about 100lbs the ATS-V got in support and equipment :lol: If you are fine with that, move on.

In fact, when the ATS became a Coupe, it received some major structural reinforcement. It was shown in the cutaway that even support was added to the engine rails, A pillar and Torque box...

The Camaro didn't get that :lol:

Because it needed a 111 inch wheelbase, it could not integrate or reinforce the coupe. They merely reduced the weight of a CTS platform and increased its rigidity thought the reduction of its footprint :lol:


It is in fact a downsized Zeta... Zeta was a V8 platform, the Alpha is a 4 cylinder platform. Trust me, it will show its age just as quick as the S197 and 5th Gen.

Though, it's only selling about 1/2 of what the 5th Gen did so, it will be in danger in 24 months.

The ATS-V is structurally a better car... the Camaro is a downsized CTS with a deleted Mid-B pillar and shortened wheelbase. It's as clever as the S197 was... and the only way they could lose 200lbs and still be under $38,000.

All the good stuff was locked into the 2SS and the MSRP skyrocketed to $42,000. Some of the standard equipment you were suppose to get is now offered as an expensive option...

None of it was worth it... None of the aluminum, missing support, decontenting, styling or drivetrain narrowing was worth it..

As soon as nobody cared, it was over. The 6th Gen is only about a 1/3 the success the 5th Gen was. Every gamble they made didn't pay off...

It could have weighed 3600lbs... I don't think it would have mattered. The styling and MSRP killed it. Once people start seeing it's no better than the last 1LE, it's doomsday. Not many people as racing 2016 Camaro's this season as not many were sold. The complete opposite of the 2015 GT.

Many professionals in the SCCA agree... the M3, 1LE and GTPP are the fastest cars in class. Everyone agrees the 1LE IS THE CAMARO to race... Everyone also agrees that a Premium is 55lbs of weight you don't need BUT, more than capable of handling a 1LE.

Unfortunately, the SCCA finds the 2016 SS to be no faster than the Camaro 1LE. That is just the hard facts AND, this is not the first or last time an SCCA TnT will be done.

I went to the VERY FIRST 1LE TNT right here in my hometown at Beaver Run. It broke a track record (sort of) and was classed in T2.

You guys act like the SCCA went out of their way to frame the 1LE :lol:

Just leave it be!!! The SCCA said the 1LE was faster in that test. The 2015 was tested to ensure it didn't hold an unfair advantage. The SCCA used the 2015 Premium as a control to make sure the GT wasn't faster in order to explain its very strong start...

Stop whining about it :lol:

 

[thePill]

Understand, the 100-130lbs the ATS-V acquired in the final moments of production were structural reinforcement. Going from 3700-3730lbs to 3820lbs.



The Camaro simply couldn't afford this or, it's diet couldn't afford it. Probably both...

What you get is a shell of what the ATS-V is. It is not the right little Alpha the ATS is. It's sloppy, under equipped, under-tired and too expensive for what you get.

The Mustang and Corvette have moved up, I'm okay with the Camaro being 3700-3800lbs. Right now, it is missing a lot of options and equipment at the 1SS level. The stereo situation alone forces more people to the 2SS anyway... still needing equipment.

Just as the BMW people stayed with the M3, looks like Camaro people are staying 5th Gen. It's wide track makes it better in sweepers and the GTPP is somewhat similar.

However, the GTPP's 107 inch wheelbase makes it agile in the slalom. Now it needs aluminum.

 

[ZaneWayne]

There is no one here that respects you anymore Pill. No one. Literally every person here thinks what you post is a joke. You made a joke of your self when you said over and over again that the Camaro could not ever ever weigh less than 3,800 pounds. You were proved wrong badly, being that the Camaro weighs less than 3,700 pounds. You shout things like the track of the Camaro is not good, therefor its a crap handling car. Yet it is handling better than the GTPP. The platform is only build for four door 4 cylinders, yes everyone is praising it for its tight handling. This forum is more entertaining with you here that is for sure, but it was a much more civil place with you rambling on social media and not here.

"0.2 seconds between the 1LE and Premium GT makes people uncomfortable."

The only one its making uncomfortable is you lol. The 10 year old platform is faster than an all new, ground up platform, yet you are chalking that up as a win somehow?

 

[Rip It]

It is in fact a downsized Zeta... Zeta was a V8 platform, the Alpha is a 4 cylinder platform. Trust me, it will show its age just as quick as the S197 and 5th Gen.

 

[200MPHCOBRA]

There is no one here that respects you anymore Pill. No one. Literally every person here thinks what you post is a joke.

You don't speak for me, or anyone besides yourself, pal.

 

[Memphis]

You don't speak for me, or anyone besides yourself, pal.

Ole buddy ole pal.


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[ZaneWayne]

You don't speak for me, or anyone besides yourself, pal.

My bad pill. You got one lol.

 

[mustang_guy]

You don't speak for me, or anyone besides yourself, pal.

I have no dislike for ThePill either. Some really seem to dislike him. He can be wrong but he at least makes in my opinion educated opinions. :shrug:

 

[ZaneWayne]

I have no dislike for ThePill either. Some really seem to dislike him. He can be wrong but he at least makes in my opinion educated opinions. :shrug:

You're right. He makes so educated guesses. But then he'll go off on the golden ratio and 1/4 inch raise in COG. Or weight......

 

[mustang_guy]

You're right. He makes so educated guesses. But then he'll go off on the golden ratio and 1/4 inch raise in COG. Or weight......

I dont see you doing any better. Easy to judge someone elses hypothesis then form your own based on educated guessing. All i see you doing is doubting him and trusting chevy. Chevy has given people a lot of reasons over the years to not believe everything they say. Hes entitled to distrust. I do think he should have said he was wrong and moved on. But hes definitely not an idiot.

 

[thePill]

thePill gets far more correct than incorrect. In this case, thePill reported the '16 SS wasn't as fast as the 1LE. I could foretell the FS classing and it seems the SCCA did as well.

The GT Brembo, GTPP, 1LE and M3 are the fastest cars in the class. The GTPP without the Premium pack can run a 1LE down fairly easily. I watched it happen all last year.

This particular TnT shows a Premium to be just as fast as a 2015 1LE. That is about as close to the Mustang any Camaro gets in the real world.

The humor I find in this is the Premium tested. It was just as fast as the 1LE :lol:


Oh boy... When racing organizations go out and do their own test, it makes popular media seem very silly. There are endless mounds of people that follow it too. Almost nobody races anymore.

 

[thePill]

You're right. He makes so educated guesses. But then he'll go off on the golden ratio and 1/4 inch raise in COG. Or weight......

The Camaro failed miserably on the wheelbase to track ratio :lol:

If Chevy seen BMW fans turning from the M4 for the same bone headed move, why do the same thing?

Oh that's right, the 5th Gen was HUGE!!! But at least it had a 64-65 inch track.

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