return-less fuel systems thoughts and ideas

[Midwestracer]

I would like to open a discussion on your guys thoughts and peoples setups that have done it. Im new to the s550 platform and even semi new to fuel injection and FI my current setup is 2018 a10 tkm short block with gen5 3.0 whipple tuned by RPG out of tenn it has a GT350 dual pump setup with a dual jms BAP, fore rails, and on a 3.625 it made just over 800rwhp. I live in the ozarks and enjoy driving my car around here and can run it low on fuel and it seems fine i also drag race it.

@engineermike
@Angrey
@WildHorse
@mejohn50
@bankyf

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[SheepDog]

I would like to open a discussion on your guys thoughts and peoples setups that have done it. Im new to the s550 platform and even semi new to fuel injection and FI my current setup is 2018 a10 tkm short block with gen5 3.0 whipple tuned by RPG out of tenn it has a GT350 dual pump setup with a dual jms BAP and on a 3.625 it made just over 800rwhp. I live in the ozarks and enjoy driving my car around here and can run it low on fuel and it seems fine i also drag race it

That discussion is already well underway over here:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...-oem-style-bucket.165841/page-13#post-3937753

I would have gone this route if it were available when I bought my return system from 1979
https://www.beefcakeracing.com/kpmmus1500pwm-18-lhd/

 

[Midwestracer]

That discussion is already well underway over here:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...-oem-style-bucket.165841/page-13#post-3937753

I would have gone this route if it were available when I bought my return system from 1979
https://www.beefcakeracing.com/kpmmus1500pwm-18-lhd/
[/QUOTE]
ya I know I dug that one back to life thought a new topic from those members and maybe some others to chime in with results and thoughts

 

[Midwestracer]

https://www.beefcakeracing.com/kpmmus1500pwm-18-lhd/
this kit is interesting I assume that is a brushless setup with the pwn
this one is interesting also
https://www.beefcakeracing.com/kpmmus2700pwm-15-lhd/ although both seem overpriced to get into a brushless setup
i believe Holley had a dual fuel pump assembly two at one time

https://www.holley.com/products/discontinued_product/parts/12-175

 

[Midwestracer]

2018, 22v bap, dw400 Whipple on the 3.25 pulley (15-16 psi), e85. Works well for me.

I’m also running a Roush f-150, 18v bap, stock pump, 12 psi boost, e85. It also works well.

My buddy is running a setup like mine but 3.375 pulley (14-15 psi), 18v bap, dw400, e85, also works well.

this is engineermikes setup FYI

 

[SheepDog]

2018, 22v bap, dw400 Whipple on the 3.25 pulley (15-16 psi), e85. Works well for me.

I’m also running a Roush f-150, 18v bap, stock pump, 12 psi boost, e85. It also works well.

My buddy is running a setup like mine but 3.375 pulley (14-15 psi), 18v bap, dw400, e85, also works well.

this is engineermikes setup FYI

Who tuned these for you? Most if not all email tooners wont even touch FI setups that do not have a return system

 

[engineermike]

Who tuned these for you? Most if not all email tooners wont even touch FI setups that do not have a return system

I tuned them. @mejohn50 is running a similar setup.

Both my car and the other mustang upgraded from 18 to 22v BAPs and saw only modest gains. The owner of the other car is an electrical engineer that decided to get to the bottom of it. Bench testing showed the DW400 flow went up a lot with that voltage increase, but it didn't play out in the car. What he found was that the stock power wire that supplies power to the FPDM and, thus, the BAP was losing nearly 2 volts. I think he's going to upgrade the power wire to see if that helps.

 

[illadvised]

What he found was that the stock power wire that supplies power to the FPDM and, thus, the BAP was losing nearly 2 volts. I think he's going to upgrade the power wire to see if that helps.

Are people not doing this? It was one of the first things I did, even before installing my BAP. The wire upgrade was super common and recommended by companies in the 3 valve days. Kenne Bell had it in their install instructions for their 3v blowers

It might be a placebo but it felt like the throttle response is much better after the wire upgrade on even a stock setup

 

[engineermike]

@illadvised I don't know of anyone doing running a bigger power wire to a BAP on a modern mustang. This is just a plug-n-play BAP and whipple-supplied DW400. We all wanted to see how far we could go without installing an expensive fuel system that makes so many sacrifices. I'd say we went further than we expected. Other cars running my pulley on e85 are making 850 rwhp +/- and I'm holding solid fuel pressure.

I even tried this on 39 lb injectors as an early test. I was able to confirm that the gen3 pcm will cut throttle if it runs out of injector, that is unless your tuner hooked you up by defeating this protection.

 

[Pistol_91]

I tuned them. @mejohn50 is running a similar setup.

Both my car and the other mustang upgraded from 18 to 22v BAPs and saw only modest gains. The owner of the other car is an electrical engineer that decided to get to the bottom of it. Bench testing showed the DW400 flow went up a lot with that voltage increase, but it didn't play out in the car. What he found was that the stock power wire that supplies power to the FPDM and, thus, the BAP was losing nearly 2 volts. I think he's going to upgrade the power wire to see if that helps.

Do you think upgrading the wire would change the lift pressure in my application?

 

[engineermike]

Do you think upgrading the wire would change the lift pressure in my application?

I don't *know* if it will help in his application. We didn't know this voltage drop was this bad until earlier this week. It's possible that there is some other "smart" limit in the BAP so the bigger wire wouldn't help at all. Hopefully we'll know more in the next few days.

 

[illadvised]

@illadvised I don't know of anyone doing running a bigger power wire to a BAP on a modern mustang. This is just a plug-n-play BAP and whipple-supplied DW400. We all wanted to see how far we could go without installing an expensive fuel system that makes so many sacrifices. I'd say we went further than we expected. Other cars running my pulley on e85 are making 850 rwhp +/- and I'm holding solid fuel pressure.

That is interesting, I would love to hear about how far you get. I would be interested in a 91 octane tune if you are tuning anyone else? I have 1050x, a dw400, upgraded wire, JMS BAP and a truck manifold. I wanted dual fuel system, but really like being able to pass smog with an afternoons worth of work.

Do you think upgrading the wire would change the lift pressure in my application?

It's really easy to do, and I felt it made a throttle improvement. All you need is a 12v relay, good gauge wire and some cheap electrical connectors. Heat shrink if you want it to be good

 

[bankyf]

They are not brushless. That is the only thing I wish they did different. With that being said, running the pumps on the PWM controller has some similar benefits to brushless. I don't believe anyone has a brushless PWM setup that can be controlled by the PCM. While I agree that brushless is the way of the future, I know of more than a few 300k mile cars still running on the original brushed pump. Aside from that, the quality of this kit is nicer than the OEM parts it is replacing.

 

[engineermike]

That is interesting, I would love to hear about how far you get.

It's about tapped out on the 3.25 pulley on e85, at my voltage and desired pressure. The lift pump duty cycle is 100% and pressure is falling to around low 60's in cold weather. It holds better in warm weather. But at ~850 rwhp on the street, I'm not sure how much more I really need.

That said, I am running stock GT500 "55#" injectors. If you really wanted to push a single brushed deadhead system to the limits, you could upgrade to the 1050's and drop the desired pressure to around 40 psi (in addition to upgrading the power wire). Math says you could drop a few pulley sizes further with these changes and possibly be in the 900+ rwhp range.

I would be interested in a 91 octane tune if you are tuning anyone else?

The problem is that, unlike the big tuners, I don't have a repository of tunes I could pluck from and send your way. Each car is its own science project and can take months to get how I want it.

but really like being able to pass smog with an afternoons worth of work.

I love that mine will pass smog and make ~850 rwhp how it sits today. Flex fueling, GT500 cats, and nothing emissions-related is disabled in the tune or on the car!

 

[engineermike]

I don't believe anyone has a brushless PWM setup that can be controlled by the PCM.

At least one company claims to sell a kit that does this. I figured out the wiring and programming some time back but never did it. It seems possible but you're right, very rare if at all done.

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