return-less fuel systems thoughts and ideas

[engineermike]

Something else worth throwing into this discussion is the stock GT500 fuel pump bucket and line. These parts are surprisingly cheap from Ford, like $550 for the bucket and maybe $200 for the line. It's similar to the GT350 bucket but the pumps are bigger. The line is needed because it has the inline fuel filter that resides under the car. This stock pump setup supports a lot of power in the GT500 world. The only challenge is the wiring. We drew out a wiring diagram to use a pair of stock FPDM's driven by the single PWM output from the PCM and no harness splicing. After doing testing, I believe the amp draw of the pair of pumps would be less than a single DW400/BAP due to much higher pump efficiency, which means you could run both off a single FPDM. The only unknown is if the resistance would be too low and the FPDM may interpret that as a fault. However, I don't think this would be the case based on the high current draw of the DW400.

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[mejohn50]

Like @engineermike said, I’m running a setup similar to his.

Whipple, E85 (really only hitting E70 around here right now), DW400, 18v BAP, and I’m on a 3.5” pulley.

My testing in about sea level DA has shown a slight pressure drop around 6500rpm from about 75psi to about 65psi and it holds strong from there. That drop coincides with where I have a DI pressure ramp from 2000psi to 3000psi. I’m sure there are things I could do to tune around this, but overall I’m not worried about it dropping. I’m sure it would drop a little more if I got in some really good negative DA air or get true E85, but again, I’m not too concerned knowing it’ll compensate with more injector PW. The car is running exactly how I expect it to, so I’m probably not going to make any tune changes to compensate.

In the short term, I will likely wait to see what the power and ground testing looks like from Mike et al and go from there. If running a dedicated power wire along with a better ground nets a notable gain, that’s an easy short term upgrade. A 22v BAP may be in my future too if I want to pulley down more on ethanol.

Longer term, I’ve been toying with the idea of the Radium hat, a single BKS1001/E5LM “Veyron” pump with the basic controller, stock fuel line, and a fuel filter added under hood before the rails. It looks like the BKS1001 controller could be controlled by the OEM fuel control logic, the only wild card for me is if the controller boots up quick enough to not lose remote start. That is a downfall of some of these brushless controllers…they don’t boot up quick enough to immediately start the car. That’s a no-go for me.

There’s also a part of me that wants to throw this DW400 in a Radium hat on a 22v BAP and see if that nets any appreciable gains.

The moral of the story though is I’m not out of fuel pump on this setup, but I’m on the edge of being out of fuel pump. I also plan to stay with a single pump and the stock fuel line for as long as I can since I don’t see myself going much past 800-850whp anytime soon. It’s a nice power level to be at on the street in these cars.

 

[Midwestracer]

getting my car rdy for test and tune tomorrow but my setup is so similar to both of your setups engineermike and mejohn i would love to test some of your ideas out on my setup love the boost by gear setup u have come up with so i am going to buy PCMTec and see if i can get somebody with hp tuners to dl my tunes so i can use them as a base to build off of and revert back to if needed. I could swap pumps in the gt-350 setup also if needed and dont mind upping the feed line size at some point, but i want to keep the drivabilty of the stock style bucket the radium is interesting also but idk if its needed i believe i have the newer gt350/500 bucket will verify

 

[engineermike]

@Midwestracer there’s a good chance you can read your tunes out of the car with pcmtec. You would have to flash each one with hpt and read it out with pcmtec.

 

[DougS550]

That discussion is already well underway over here:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...-oem-style-bucket.165841/page-13#post-3937753

I would have gone this route if it were available when I bought my return system from 1979
https://www.beefcakeracing.com/kpmmus1500pwm-18-lhd/

The KPM with bucket design and E85 return fuel system is what I will likely go with.

 

[WildHorse]

I it has a GT350 dual pump setup with a dual jms BAP, fore rails, and on a 3.625 it made just over 800rwhp.

seem to me you have more than enough fuel system. Personally I'd up the voltage to the BAP(s) to 20v or 24v. Pumps might not last as long as factory though.

 

[Midwestracer]

seem to me you have more than enough fuel system. Personally I'd up the voltage to the BAP(s) to 20v or 24v. Pumps might not last as long as factory though.

So how much rwhp can the stock feed line handle on e85 and I'd rather upgrade the pumps even in gt350 bucket then risk killing a pump on a pass or pull

 

[Angrey]

seem to me you have more than enough fuel system. Personally I'd up the voltage to the BAP(s) to 20v or 24v. Pumps might not last as long as factory though.

I'd be cautious with over voltage. Some of the pumps on the market are specifically tested with torture tests to see what they can handle intermittently and what they can handle sustained. If the pump wasn't designed from the get go to be over driven, it can withstand some boosting, but I wouldn't want it to see sustained high voltages. Everything from it's ability to shed heat, it's ability for all the components to heat and expand, etc comes into play.

24 volts would be driving any pump designed for half of that VERY HARD. It's almost as if the pumps that are inefficient are better suited to being driven harder.

 

[engineermike]

Couple of notes regarding a few posts:

- The gt500 uses the same diameter fuel line as gt and some are making over 1000 rwhp on e85 with the stock line. And due to the lower compression ratio, it takes them 10% more fuel than the coyote to get there.

- Not sure I’ve seen any 20 or 24 volt baps. 18 is most common followed by 22 and even 21.

- In bench testing, we fried one stock pump at 22 volts almost immediately but another one seemed to hold up. The dw400 is only recommended to run up to 20 volts but we ran one for several minutes at 22 and it didn’t seem to exhibit any distress in this timeframe.

 

[Midwestracer]

@Midwestracer there’s a good chance you can read your tunes out of the car with pcmtec. You would have to flash each one with hpt and read it out with pcmtec.

Will be getting on that just bought a fresh laptop to log and tune this car let u know how track day goes later hope to break into a 9 today

 

[bankyf]

For anyone interested in experimenting, since I've seen many of these things discussed in this thread... I've gathered a plethora of fuel system components over the past 2 year, all unused that I'd make some decent deals on. Eventually I'll get around to officially listing them, but for now if you're interested, shoot me a PM to discuss. I have:

Radium hat originally setup for E5LM pump so it still has the parts for that, but currently has 2 Fuellab brushless pumps installed. I have the internal regulator and the regulator block off as well.

Fuellab electronic regulator that provides the PWM feedback to the pump controllers along with the above mentioned pumps and controllers.

Gt500 bucket, extra FPDM/wiring harnesses and fuel line/filter. Not sure about shipping the line, but I could look into it.

DW400 installed in the stuck fuel bucket. This is used, but only for about 400 miles and only on 93 octane/E10.

ID1050 injectors

Also have a full Lethal return system, but that likely won't appeal to anyone on this thread.

 

[WildHorse]

24 volts would be driving any pump designed for half of that VERY HARD. It's almost as if the pumps that are inefficient are better suited to being driven harder.

interesting point. Still, I'd rather over voltage and have the pump fail then having a pump still working but allowing dangerously low fuel pressures.

So how much rwhp can the stock feed line handle on e85 and I'd rather upgrade the pumps even in gt350 bucket then risk killing a pump on a pass or pull

Hard to say. on E85 maybe 650-700hp. To many factors though. Make sure the injector can supply fuel comfortably at 65% Duty Cycle.

 

[engineermike]

Hard to say. on E85 maybe 650-700hp. To many factors though. Make sure the injector can supply fuel comfortably at 65% Duty Cycle.

What data do you have to support these claims?

 

[WildHorse]

What data do you have to support these claims?

none. move on to the next guy.

 

[engineermike]

none. move on to the next guy.

The next guy isn’t making these claims. I’m just wondering why you think the limit of the stock fuel line is 650-700 when 850-1000 has been demonstrated many times. Also wondering why you might believe 65% duty cycle is a good max. Are you speaking from personal experience?

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