lest anyone think I can't spot problems with GM engineering, the 285 is because the MORON at GM engineering put the spring seat so low it interferes with wheel/tire barrel clearance. Otherwise 11" wide wheels would have fit very easily.
I believe GM is able to spread some of the costs around product lines. As stated in another post, the Camaro shares its chassis/underpinnings with Cadillac. The engine, (tooling, design, parts, etc) are shared across Cadillac, Corvette, Chevy Trucks, GMC Trucks, etc. The Mustang is basically a one off. There are no other rear wheel drive, V8 powered cars, produced by Ford. Even the Ford GT is an Ecoboost of some sort. And it is not produced in any amount of volume to reduce costs across models. The Coyote is available in Mustangs and F-Series trucks, but I believe Ford is selling many more of the ecoboost engines in the F-Series. Somehow Ford makes it work, and hope they can continue.
Isn't that Camaro 455 hp ?
Modern Camaro was built in Oshawa, ON and the modern Charger was built in Brampton, ON.... Just sayin'God bless America and Detroit Muscle!
Comparing my 2021 LT1 to Mustangs that I've owned by suspension stiffness, it's in the realm of GT350. It's not soft at all on the road.The Mopars aren't even on my radar.
I drove one of my best friend's SS 1LE at a COTA track weekend for multiple sessions and it was as good as advertised. Great car all around. He did manage to blow a hole through the block but Chevy warrantied it with no complaint.
Would have no issue buying one. Given the modifications I've done to my Mustang, it would've saved me a lot of money.
Also, PP1 was more equivalent to the base SS, with the later LT1 package being the regular GT equivalent. The PP2 got halfway to the 1LE but really, Ford only got 1:1 parity with the Mach 1 at a much higher price too.
I didn't drive a LT1 for very long. Most of my miles were in magride equipped. The Camaro springs are actually quite light in rate. I wouldn't be surprised if the FE4 damping is way too tight on high speed comp.
Spot on with your analysis of the top 3 coupe muscle cars with back seats!Met up with two buddies today to cruise and shoot some pics. Comparison and my impressions and pics below but I’ll first say we are lucky to have lived through the second muscle car era!
The cars:
2022 GT PP1 manual, 2019 Charger Scatpack auto 392 handling package, 2021 Camaro 2SS 1LE auto. All cars are completely stock (with the exception of stock airbox mods.) All had brembos - all on summer rubber.
Straight line speed:
Here’s what most people care about. the Mustang pulled fairly hard on the scat from a 50 roll. I was actually really surprised how bad he got gapped. The Camaro was nowhere to be found (combo of heavy drag for the 1LE from the aero and really sticky tires is my guess - not surprising). From a dig the Scat beats the Mustang and below 40 the Camaro does too (man those autos shift fast). A ten speed mustang would be a different story probably. Overall they are very similar and fast for mid level muscle, but mustang takes 1st, charger a very close 2nd, Camaro 3rd.
handling:
On paper these cars should be fairly similar - all around the same msrp, V8, handling package equipped. All have big Brembos.
In reality, there was no contest. The Camaro had not only the most comfortable suspension but the most capable as well. The 1LE package is light years ahead of the PP1. The Camaro was unbelievably composed in every situation imaginable. michigan potholes hardly shook the car and you could floor the car coming out of a roundabout and barely chirp the tires. It hooks and books.
the GT is second, but not close. I love my car but I was blown away by the Camaro. I would be lying if I said I didn’t have some buyers remorse. My car is stiff, but lacks the grip of the Camaro and its composure over bumps. Additionally, under hard acceleration, the rear end jumps sideways slightly while the Camaro is glued to the pavement and accelerates perfectly straight. The plus for the Mustang is its brakes - not sure what car and driver was talking about when it said the Camaro had better brakes. The Mustang brembos are equal imo in pure braking power and have better feel and low speed modulation.
the scat, at 700 pounds heavier than both other cars, is a distant third. This is a big comfortable car and I have long thought it makes the best daily driver for around metro Detroit (I may be biased-my daily is an AWD hemi charger.) But handling wise it’s not close to the other two. It is a true muscle car whereas the Camaro and Mustang have moved into the sports segment. This car was wallowing all over the road compared to the other two and cooked its brakes, necessitating a 10 minute cool down, while my car and the Camaro’s brakes were cool to the touch when we stopped. The scat almost ate my bumper more than once on what I thought were fairly casual stops once its brakes heated up.
Driving impression/interior:
Driving all three back to back, my first thought is you really can’t go wrong. Just depends what you want.
The Mustang is my choice, balancing comfort with a great interior and top end speed. I love this car more and more as I drive it. The coyote sounds the best to me, the charger a very close 2nd and the Camaro 3rd (Camaro sounds like a truck motor to me, which it sort of is). I’ve always had a soft spot for small blocks, no matter how big they actually
The Camaro is a track beast and also pretty comfortable but the cabin is a coffin and I find the car ugly. The recaro seats are awesome for short drives (ford - figure out how to heat and cool them like Chevy does) but start to feel hard on longer drives.This is a fantastic car and truthfully, had I been able to find a manual version of this car, I probably would have bought it instead of the Mustang. The stang is a fun car for me after all and this car is pure fun, but I hate the interior and interface and I’d probably drive it less than I drive my Mustang because of this.
The charger, again, is probably the most practical daily of the three. best interior, great infotainment system and nav (don’t care what anyone says, uconnect is miles ahead of sync or the GM system). the handling package maybe turns it into a ski boat instead of a yacht, but it’s still a boat. Overall it’s a muscle car and a great looking one at that.
final thoughts:
Three great cars from the big 3, all excelling at their own thing. The Mustang balances between track terror and the boulevard brawler, which is why it’s the best selling of the three imo. What a great era this was, I’m truly sad to see the Camaro and Charger go.
God bless America and Detroit Muscle!
photo dump:
Yes, possibly the dampers are really resistive on high speed compression. When you hit any kind of irregularity on the highway, it hits a little harder than my other recent cars (not the FiST, that suspension was stiffer). For my snow tires I was able to buy 18 inch wheels and get a little sidewall on the tires, but it's still fairly harsh. With the stock 20 inch rims some highway/bridge transitions feel like they are going to damage the car. The suspension doesn't bottom out or anything, but there's a somewhat noisy bang when you hit them and you feel bumps a bit more so compared to a GT350, for example.
The Coyote is built at the Essex plant in Windsor, so all three have Canadian hands involved in the process lolModern Camaro was built in Oshawa, ON and the modern Charger was built in Brampton, ON.... Just sayin'
Agreed that it's a shame that the Mustang is the last car standing (almost literally) built in North America.
The 6th Gen (and I think 5th Gen) Camaro was made in Lansing MI.Modern Camaro was built in Oshawa, ON and the modern Charger was built in Brampton, ON.... Just sayin'
Agreed that it's a shame that the Mustang is the last car standing (almost literally) built in North America.
Gotta think the SS 1LE you saw beat a ZL1 was driver related or the ZL1 was on an inferior tire. The 6th Gen ZL1 has the same suspension setup (tuned for the slightly more weight), wheel/tire size, bigger brakes, slightly better aero, and a lot more power than an SS 1LE.
