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Fuel systems with an OEM style bucket

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bankyf

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KPM is doing a nice job on their systems. You are still going to be somewhat limited horsepower wise but for the guys that you know 900 maybe 1000 wheel it’s a nice option we are offering
As you are contradicting their specs, why do you believe it will be limited? 4 PWM controlled fuel pumps and a 1/2” fuel line is only good for 1000hp?
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bankyf

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Are they still going filter-less in the lower tier systems?
I don’t believe that has changed. My kit came with a filter, but I did pull one of my buckets apart out of curiosity. They do have filter socks on the pumps and there are filter screens on the crossover pickups.
 

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The irony is that Fuelab solved this over a decade ago. They developed a 1000 rwhp+ system, fully variable, PWM controlled with a brushless in tank setup for the S197.

Furthermore, the elegance of the electronic fuel regulator meant that the tuner was largely removed from the equation. In essence "you ask for fuel and it's there."

When I spoke with them, they indicated they were not interested in the R/D to replicate the system for the S550 because virtually no one bought the last version.

We're fighting several things here, including what tuners are comfortable and familiar with doing. When I converted to the MOTEC, they eliminated the stand alone fueling and the pumps are now PWM controlled by the MOTEC M150. It's difficult to get tuners to venture out of their comfort.

With the electronic regulator, there's zero need for any adjustment other than setting the base idle pressure. From there, as long as the system is installed properly, when you mash the gas, the regulator instructs the pumps to increase output. When you let off the gas, they instruct the pumps to lower output. It's brilliantly simple and actually indexes the fuel demands as appropriately as you can get (based off consumption at the rail).

With the newer/smaller brushless options, not only has the system improved, there are "boosting" options much better now (either JMS variability or constant boost setups which brushless pumps can handle easily and durably).

Many parts of this whole discussion have been solved for some time. But the market is slow and resistant because most of the stakeholders in the industry and even enthusiasts parrot the same, obsolete and dated shit. "Just get a Fore system."
 
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bankyf

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The irony is that Fuelab solved this over a decade ago. They developed a 1000 rwhp+ system, fully variable, PWM controlled with a brushless in tank setup for the S197.

Furthermore, the elegance of the electronic fuel regulator meant that the tuner was largely removed from the equation. In essence "you ask for fuel and it's there."

When I spoke with them, they indicated they were not interested in the R/D to replicate the system for the S550 because virtually no one bought the last version.

We're fighting several things here, including what tuners are comfortable and familiar with doing. When I converted to the MOTEC, they eliminated the stand alone fueling and the pumps are now PWM controlled by the MOTEC M150. It's difficult to get tuners to venture out of their comfort.

With the electronic regulator, there's zero need for any adjustment other than setting the base idle pressure. From there, as long as the system is installed properly, when you mash the gas, the regulator instructs the pumps to increase output. When you let off the gas, they instruct the pumps to lower output. It's brilliantly simple and actually indexes the fuel demands as appropriately as you can get (based off consumption at the rail).

With the newer/smaller brushless options, not only has the system improved, there are "boosting" options much better now (either JMS variability or constant boost setups which brushless pumps can handle easily and durably).

Many parts of this whole discussion have been solved for some time. But the market is slow and resistant because most of the stakeholders in the industry and even enthusiasts parrot the same, obsolete and dated shit. "Just get a Fore system."
I knew I was going to need to largely handle the tuning myself (with the help of an expert) because, as you mentioned, the mainstream tuners aren’t going to venture out of their comfort zone to innovate. KPM says that they have interest from many of the larger “workshops” in the US, so if one of them actually gets onboard the others will almost certainly follow suit.

If anyone wants to try the fuel lab route, I have everything you need ,all unused, that I would sell at a substantial discount over new.
 

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As you are contradicting their specs, why do you believe it will be limited? 4 PWM controlled fuel pumps and a 1/2” fuel line is only good for 1000hp?
the 1500 hp fuel system is a module only, no lines, no rails. You are not making 1500 hp on a 15-17 or 18-23 car on the stock rails on e85. Nor do I belive the stock line is going to support 1500hp on e85.

I'm not saying the module cannot make 1500 hp but I would never put a customers car out with just a module and want to tune it for 1500 hp on e85 with no return, and no rails, and no lines.
 

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Many parts of this whole discussion have been solved for some time. But the market is slow and resistant because most of the stakeholders in the industry and even enthusiasts parrot the same, obsolete and dated shit. "Just get a Fore system."
For the $, the systems are very nice and work very well and certainly not outdated. They are proven systems, i would venture to guess 25-30k vehicles on the road with them. Proven systems, by a USA company, that stands and backs the product 110%. There is no better mfg to deal with.

The systems simply work, and work well. Flaws and warranty are the lowest of any manufacturer I deal with in this industry bar none.

Its not being resistant to change. Its simply knowing that its a proven product, as good a quality as you can get, as consistent as you can be, and just works.
 

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I knew I was going to need to largely handle the tuning myself (with the help of an expert) because, as you mentioned, the mainstream tuners aren’t going to venture out of their comfort zone to innovate. KPM says that they have interest from many of the larger “workshops” in the US, so if one of them actually gets onboard the others will almost certainly follow suit.

If anyone wants to try the fuel lab route, I have everything you need ,all unused, that I would sell at a substantial discount over new.
I tried telling the tuner, you can just leave it alone, and not worry about it. The fuel is there and in my case had already been dyno and street tested/confirmed. There was NOTHING in my previous tune that controlled fuel delivery (or rather it was there, but did/affected nothing). The only consideration for the tuner was adjusting the idle pressure and from there, it maintained a constant boost indexed pressure at the rails. The ONLY hiccup we saw was that with a 150 mm throttle body and the crude whipple bypass slamming shut, there was a momentary dip in the lower rpms (but that's not typical of most people's setups). Once the smooth boost (or smoothing of the tune loading) is employed, that goes away. The return line feed serves as a flow buffer for any momentary spikes in consumption.

In any case, they went back to what they knew (controlling the pumps with the PCM). So now my fancy electronic regulator is just a typical boost indexed regulator. (oh well, I didn't know at the time I'd be pursuing the MOTEC).

Again, I've posted before that if it weren't for the EV's the entire industry would have probably migrated away from shitty brush pumps and crude control relying on failure points like Hobbs switches. But now with ICE vehicles in decline, the adoption is going to be pretty muted. We're in the middle of the death of these types of vehicles. In a generation, virtually no one will be in this game (unless, we get drastic leadership and political changes. Just recently I saw articles that the EPA is trying to increase the fleet economy stuff again in 2027).
 

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For the $, the systems are very nice and work very well and certainly not outdated. They are proven systems, i would venture to guess 25-30k vehicles on the road with them. Proven systems, by a USA company, that stands and backs the product 110%. There is no better mfg to deal with.

The systems simply work, and work well. Flaws and warranty are the lowest of any manufacturer I deal with in this industry bar none.

Its not being resistant to change. Its simply knowing that its a proven product, as good a quality as you can get, as consistent as you can be, and just works.
Well, your definition of "works" and mine are different. They work with *asterisk and caveats that we've discussed ad nauseum.

I want to be able to mash the gas anytime, any where, at any fuel level. I don't want to drive 2 hours running triple pumps at 20+ amps each. I don't want to have to constantly replace brush pumps (not Fore's issue, but the reliability with TI/Walbro may be good compared to the rest of the industry, but it's like the tallest child, brush style pumps suck. They burn up).

It "works" for weekend drag queens. It doesn't replicate the capabilities and all the aspects of OEM type performance.

Part of the problem here is that a decade ago, a 1000 rwhp car was pretty rowdy and most people just accepted "race car life." Now, 1000 rwhp is pretty common among street and daily driver cars and it almost universally involves E85. Those two aspects combine to create a condition where I don't want to limit my right foot under 1/2 tank (which for many people now is like 60 miles). I don't want to constantly have to top off the car for fear of endangering my expensive motor.

The market needs a 4 digit, capable system WITHOUT the typical drawbacks and limitations of triple pump systems that draw constant power, burn up pumps and relays and fuses and can be capable of more OEM/daily driver type use.

I spoke directly with Fore at the beginning of this. I have a lot of respect for what he did in the industry and his products. But I'm beyond "race car." I want the performance of a drag car in the usability of OEM. I want to take long trips. I want to get on it with less than 1/2 tank. I don't want to constantly worry what will happen when one of my 285 pumps burns up (which is COMMON).

Brush style pumps survived way longer than they should have. The only brush motors you find in small hand tools now are complete junk.

I could replace your statement in a discussion about cordless drills and have the same outcome. Brush pumps and the issues that come with them (and naked pump hangers) are obsolete. Do they work? Depends on what your definition of "work" is and what your requirements are.
 

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Well, your definition of "works" and mine are different. They work with *asterisk and caveats that we've discussed ad nauseum.

I want to be able to mash the gas anytime, any where, at any fuel level. I don't want to drive 2 hours running triple pumps at 20+ amps each. I don't want to have to constantly replace brush pumps (not Fore's issue, but the reliability with TI/Walbro may be good compared to the rest of the industry, but it's like the tallest child, brush style pumps suck. They burn up).

It "works" for weekend drag queens. It doesn't replicate the capabilities and all the aspects of OEM type performance.

Part of the problem here is that a decade ago, a 1000 rwhp car was pretty rowdy and most people just accepted "race car life." Now, 1000 rwhp is pretty common among street and daily driver cars and it almost universally involves E85. Those two aspects combine to create a condition where I don't want to limit my right foot under 1/2 tank (which for many people now is like 60 miles). I don't want to constantly have to top off the car for fear of endangering my expensive motor.

The market needs a 4 digit, capable system WITHOUT the typical drawbacks and limitations of triple pump systems that draw constant power, burn up pumps and relays and fuses and can be capable of more OEM/daily driver type use.

I spoke directly with Fore at the beginning of this. I have a lot of respect for what he did in the industry and his products. But I'm beyond "race car." I want the performance of a drag car in the usability of OEM. I want to take long trips. I want to get on it with less than 1/2 tank. I don't want to constantly worry what will happen when one of my 285 pumps burns up (which is COMMON).

Brush style pumps survived way longer than they should have. The only brush motors you find in small hand tools now are complete junk.

I could replace your statement in a discussion about cordless drills and have the same outcome. Brush pumps and the issues that come with them (and naked pump hangers) are obsolete. Do they work? Depends on what your definition of "work" is and what your requirements are.
You don't need to run all 3 pumps all the time. On street car setups we run 1 pump and use a hobbs for the other 2.

As far as mashing the gas "any time i want". Even on stock fuel system vehicles. when i'm below 1/4 tank, i'm not out beating the snot out of my car.

If i'm on a stock pump gas car only making 700 wheel. I have no interest in going wot at 20 miles to e......

In that regards, yours and my definitions are different.

Everyone has their own opinion. And not necessarily a right or wrong answer. If there was 1 setup for everyone, only 1 would exist. But for now we will stick with tried and true on "most applicatoins" that plan on 1000-1000+ hp 800 is a different thing
 

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@beefcake

The "base" 1500 HP system on your website shows a fuel filter in the parts images, but not in the description of what is included. Also, it looks like it has AN ORB fittings, how would this integrate into the factory 3/8" fuel line?

1711118671956-mn.png
 

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Hobbs switch reliability isn’t great and you don’t know it failed until it’s too late.
 

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OK, I got a headache reading so much, very informative post. BUT: Just need one answer. I have a 19GT I just installed a Whipple Stage 2 with ID1050 injectors and will be driven mostly on street, week end driver. I plan to switch to E85 with an objective of running 800-850whp And "NOT" have to worry about maintaining 1/2 tank or more without having fuel supply issues while driving on the street/track at any desired throttle. What "Fuel Hat" return style fuel system would safely, easily flow the fuel nessasary for my application.
Thank you all for some great insight.
 
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bankyf

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the 1500 hp fuel system is a module only, no lines, no rails. You are not making 1500 hp on a 15-17 or 18-23 car on the stock rails on e85. Nor do I belive the stock line is going to support 1500hp on e85.

I'm not saying the module cannot make 1500 hp but I would never put a customers car out with just a module and want to tune it for 1500 hp on e85 with no return, and no rails, and no lines.
The quoted numbers are based on gasoline per KPMs website, so 1500hp should be around 1000hp on E. @engineermike has some pretty solid theories that the GT500 bucket and stock size lines will make 1000hp on E, so their claim is reasonable. I personally went with the 2700hp system. My goals aren't that large, but the redundancy in pumps makes me feel better in the event of a single pump failure.
 
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bankyf

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@beefcake

The "base" 1500 HP system on your website shows a fuel filter in the parts images, but not in the description of what is included. Also, it looks like it has AN ORB fittings, how would this integrate into the factory 3/8" fuel line?

1711118671956-mn.png
The listing is incorrect. It does not come with the filter and it cannot reasonably be integrated into the factory line. I have the filter in hand. Not sure of the threads, but it is designed to attach to the upgraded 1/2" pre-bent stainless lines.
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