First track day in the R

[Hack]

Not at all. Braking technique is one of the hardest things to learn and one of the last skills to be mastered. Most people need to spend time unlearning a brake technique that works on the street but not on the track. Most common problems I've seen when coaching people:

* Braking too early, and even more common, releasing the brakes too late.

* Long, slow application of the brake pedal as opposed to a quick punch that ends with threshold braking. Beginners roll into brake zones as though they are approaching a red light. Experienced drivers slow the car quickly by reaching threshold braking.

* Inability to keep constant pressure on brake pedal while heal and toe downshifting. Data shows a lift off the pedal (but still braking) and then reapplication of the brake pressure.

All of these things extend brake zones and add heat to the system.

Long slow application of the brake will slow the car more gradually and put less heat into the system because the brakes have more time to reject the heat as it is added into the system more slowly.

Letting off and reapplying will reduce heat in the brakes as well and for the same reason.

By your definitions "proper" braking technique will add the most possible heat into the braking system (assuming someone doesn't Sammy Hagar the brake/gas at the same time).

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[J_Maher_AMG]

Long slow application of the brake will slow the car more gradually and put less heat into the system because the brakes have more time to reject the heat as it is added into the system more slowly.

Letting off and reapplying will reduce heat in the brakes as well and for the same reason.

By your definitions "proper" braking technique will add the most possible heat into the braking system (assuming someone doesn't Sammy Hagar the brake/gas at the same time).

If braking force/stopping distances were perfectly linear, you may have a point. But, they aren't, and long slow applications of the brake absolutely will put more heat into the system. It isn't as if they are talking light braking coming to a red light. A user is still hitting the brakes "hard", but the duration of time that the pressure is applied will result in a greater production of friction and therefore heat than higher pressure over a significantly shorter time.

 

[Zitrosounds]

If braking force/stopping distances were perfectly linear, you may have a point. But, they aren't, and long slow applications of the brake absolutely will put more heat into the system. It isn't as if they are talking light braking coming to a red light. A user is still hitting the brakes "hard", but the duration of time that the pressure is applied will result in a greater production of friction and therefore heat than higher pressure over a significantly shorter time.

Hack my man you got it all wrong.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-ways-to-make-your-brakes-last-longer.html
https://community.cartalk.com/t/best-way-to-brake-for-long-brake-life/71888\

 

[Zitrosounds]

Hack my man you got it all wrong.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-ways-to-make-your-brakes-last-longer.html
https://community.cartalk.com/t/best-way-to-brake-for-long-brake-life/71888\

"The surface temperatures of the disc and the pad vary with both time and position.
https://cdn.comsol.com/wordpress/20...-modeling-heat-generation-in-a-disc-brake.pdf

 

[Hack]

If braking force/stopping distances were perfectly linear, you may have a point. But, they aren't, and long slow applications of the brake absolutely will put more heat into the system. It isn't as if they are talking light braking coming to a red light. A user is still hitting the brakes "hard", but the duration of time that the pressure is applied will result in a greater production of friction and therefore heat than higher pressure over a significantly shorter time.

That only makes sense if you are on the throttle as well as the brakes. Otherwise it doesn't.

Hack my man you got it all wrong.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-ways-to-make-your-brakes-last-longer.html
https://community.cartalk.com/t/best-way-to-brake-for-long-brake-life/71888\

"The surface temperatures of the disc and the pad vary with both time and position.
https://cdn.comsol.com/wordpress/20...-modeling-heat-generation-in-a-disc-brake.pdf

I believe every one of those links supports my statement. Consider that you have a straight on your local road course. At the entrance to the straight you nail the throttle. As you approach the end of the straight you are going to get off the gas and step on the brakes.

In order to have a longer, gentler brake application, you have to step onto the brakes sooner. The net reduction in speed (and kinetic energy) you are asking for the brakes to produce will be less than if you stayed on the gas longer, because essentially you are making the acceleration zone shorter by extending the braking zone.

Even assuming incorrectly that you could somehow achieve the same top speed with a longer braking zone, remember that air flow over the brakes cools them. The peak heat in the braking system will be the heat input by friction (related to the drop in kinetic energy) MINUS the cooling from the air. Gentle braking will heat the brakes very little because the brakes are continually being cooled by air flow while braking.

Threshold braking will get the brakes absolutely the hottest they can be, because the brakes are gaining more heat in a shorter period of time, and there is less time for the air flow to cool the brakes.

 

[censport]

Oh forgot that part...if not wanting to go with a Watson 4pt roll bar yet then something like this:

https://mikemaierinc.com/product/mustang/s550-mustang-seat-belt-harness-bar/

with: (also the correct 4pt ASM harness with OE Recaro seats and Watson 4 pt roll bar)

https://www.hmsmotorsport.com/products/profi-ii-asm

thank you for this info! i will be needing both of these.

 

[Zombo]

^ Is that what they taught Stab and squeeze? We used to teach you squeeze on the brakes first to transfer weight smoothly, then you can get on them and modulate as necessary. Maybe the Magneride is the difference?

 

[JT1]

^ Is that what they taught Stab and squeeze? We used to teach you squeeze on the brakes first to transfer weight smoothly, then you can get on them and modulate as necessary. Maybe the Magneride is the difference?

Interested in this. I've been to a few HPDEs, and have been told by different instructors, very experienced fast drivers, different things.

Been told both techniques, hit the brakes hard right away, stab if you will, also been told to roll onto the brakes. Not a long drawn out slow squeeze, but not a stab.

Which is correct?

 

[Zitrosounds]

^ Is that what they taught Stab and squeeze? We used to teach you squeeze on the brakes first to transfer weight smoothly, then you can get on them and modulate as necessary. Maybe the Magneride is the difference?

Don't get hung up on the wording as that is how some of my European friends refer to it. The concept you mention is the same. Stab is the quick brake application to settle the car and the squeeze is the modulation and release.

 

[Zombo]

I'm with [MENTION=12069]Hack[/MENTION] on this.

Braking is all about converting vehicle kinetic energy into thermal energy. Doesn't matter how long the process takes, the same amount of heat is going into the brake disc. However, the brake disc also dissipates heat to the ambient simultaneously. Thus, extending the brake time has a tendency to reduce overall brake disc temp rise. By extending the brake zone (on a track) you also lower your terminal speed, as Hack mentioned, which lowers the amount of energy the brakes need to absorb to begin with. At the same time, the hotter the rotor, the more effective the heat transfer to the ambient is. So, it's balancing act. Since driving on a race track, the goal is to minimize lap times, accelerating for the longest period of time and braking for the shortest gets you the fastest lap - assuming your brakes can stand the heat.

 

[Zombo]

Interested in this. I've been to a few HPDEs, and have been told by different instructors, very experienced fast drivers, different things.

Been told both techniques, hit the brakes hard right away, stab if you will, also been told to roll onto the brakes. Not a long drawn out slow squeeze, but not a stab.

Which is correct?

In my opinion, you smoothly "roll" on the brakes for a brief period of time to transfer weight, then you can get on them as hard as you need. Getting on them hard from the get-go has a tendency to upset the chassis. Since right before braking, you were accelerating down the straight, the weight was transferred to the rear. If you get hard on the brakes, there is a major transfer to the front, which lightens the rear significantly potentially causing instability (try that in the wet).

It's been my experience that when you are driving near the limit, you never do anything in a jerky, unsmooth way.

 

[honeybadger]

Am I missing something or are we forgetting that we are driving on a race track? Don't we want to try to do whatever is fastest and smoothest? That's a smooth roll onto the brakes, then apply the pedal pressure as hard as needed, then smooth transfer back to throttle. Extending your braking zone is inefficient in regards to time.

There might be more nuance to it, but I can tell you from my own experience the only time I got brake fade is when I rode the brakes too much (long braking zones). When I worked to minimize the amount of time I spent braking by doing it more quickly and agressively, I haven't had brake fade since.

Edit. In regards to OP - welcome to 6G. Sorry we derailed your thread. Hope to see you other there!

 

[teamsketch]

Am I missing something or are we forgetting that we are driving on a race track? Don't we want to try to do whatever is fastest and smoothest? That's a smooth roll onto the brakes, then apply the pedal pressure as hard as needed, then smooth transfer back to throttle. Extending your braking zone is inefficient in regards to time.

There might be more nuance to it, but I can tell you from my own experience the only time I got brake fade is when I rode the brakes too much (long braking zones). When I worked to minimize the amount of time I spent braking by doing it more quickly and agressively, I haven't had brake fade since.

Edit. In regards to OP - welcome to 6G. Sorry we derailed your thread. Hope to see you other there!

Lol, this is turning into a great thread.

Maybe it would be better if I explain what I am 'feeling' after a long session. At Pacific Raceways, there are 4 main braking zones. The first one is flat with a terminal speed around 150mph to around ~60mph, second one is 100mph+ to around 30mph (downhill) and the third is 110mph to 70mph. After a long session, I was getting a lot of pedal travel in the third braking zone, enough where it was inconsistent and I needed to give myself extra room. The pads also seemed to lose bite, but that also might be because I am used to the consistency of full race pads.

Never did I feel like I really couldn't stop, but there was some inconsistency. I am very aggressive in braking zones, often catching people in much better prepped vehicles. However, I can only do that with a very consistent brake feel. It sounds like maybe I just need to upgrade the fluid and possibly try a race pad. Otherwise I think the system is fine.

With respect to the arguments about how to brake, I have been taught to aggressively role into the brakes as fast as you can while also not upsetting the balance of the car. This was especially important on the Boss because if you got into the brakes too hard too quickly, the vehicle felt like it was going to do a cartwheel. However, with just a little patience (as opposed to stabbing) you could get a better set, which ultimately provided shorter braking distances.

Often times beginners will use their brakes too much because they are over slowing the car. The more experienced the driver, the less time you spend on the brakes even as you are going faster. This first time behavior is often a cause of overheated brakes at the track. I think this is a far greater issue than the nuance of initial brake application in braking zones.

 

[Stuntman]

Braking in the shortest distance possible allows the brakes to cool longer over a course of a lap. In addition, not over-slowing a corner and getting off the brakes while carrying more entry speed also means you're on the brakes for a shorter period of time.

 

[teamsketch]

Braking in the shortest distance possible allows the brakes to cool longer over a course of a lap. In addition, not over-slowing a corner and getting off the brakes while carrying more entry speed also means you're on the brakes for a shorter period of time.

Exactly.

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