Whipple down on power, Then Motor blown

[WD Pro]

I will second the comment above of getting the injectors checked, one could have gone bad and leaned its cylinder (that’s also my ‘guess’ based on reading through the thread and taking all the statements from you / your tuner as gospel).

Fancy management’s have the ability to monitor individual EGT’s for a reason

WD

ps : Hope you get it all fixed up OK

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[3star2nr]

Good Afternoon,


Looking for a little help in determining what caused my whippled GT to be down on power and then to blow on the dyno…


4 things changed when I started noticing I was down on power

-OPG install (crank relearn done after)

-Clutch (crank relearn done after)

- Mid Resonator Delete

- New wheels (Miles/rev adjusted)


My car is a 2017 Gt premium with PP, 6 speed, and 3.31 gears. The car dyno’d at 701whp and 562wtq (stock whipple tune)


After the clutch break-in period, I did a few races with a FBO C7 and pulley swapped E55 AMG. I lost to both these cars that are under 550whp.


After losing to both cars I knew my car was down on power. After letting the car cool a little, the car started back up really rough and soon leveled out to a smooth idle. I drove the car home once I thought it seemed normal. The next day i did a KOER test and got a P1101 Mass Air Flow sensor out of range and P2196 O2 Sensor Signal Biased/Stuck Rich ( bank 1 sensor 1). I then talked to a tuner buddy of mine he said clear the codes. I cleared all codes and did both a KOEO and KOER test again, no codes reappeared. I got in my car to do a few small pulls, still down on power and the car did not want to break loose at all.


I had my buddy’s shop look over the car and try to data log it slow on the dyno….No issues appeared , so thought we should go with a full power all nannies off run ….. the car put down 550whp at 5200rpm before fire ,white smoke from tailpipe and engine bay.


Things found after blown

-Valve cover is blown out the side of passenger side head

-spark plug 3 found with oil

-cylinder 3 with hole in piston

-will turn but not start


What could of the caused me to be down on power ?

Why did it blown on the dyno but no on the street ?

How do I prevent this after its fixed ?


Thanks for your time

Sounds like the timing signal was fucked up and the ECU was advancing it too much which melted the piston.


It could have been caused by the timing being improperly set. You said you changed oil pump gears if you were off of TDC slightly that could have thrown the timi,g off but not enough to cause interference.

The lower power is consistent with the cams opening too soon or too late causing low compression...

But yeah... Sorry to hear but this is part of the game. Buy an aluminator
Or rebuild with sleeves and low comp pistons then run 20-30 psi fuck it might as well go apeshit now

 

[GreenS550]

Direct injection can wash the cylinders which can cause bore scoring and seizure. If it had the same tune for 11k miles. that seems plausible.

'17s don't have direct injection...

 

[GreenS550]

I had an issue with a '15 that had a sc and opgs put in. 3 other supercharged cars with stock OPGS with NO issues. I am not saying the OPG install caused the issue but the engine went, then new shortblock and engine went again. I cannot say the shop due to a settlement, but if it were me, I would have installed a new engine from Ford. A long time shop here will not put them in because he has never experienced any failures in many many engine supercharger installs and builds. I know how awful what you are going through is. You second guess the tune, gas, shop, on and on. I still remember the big "cylinder 8" scare that had us all wanting to put the "fix kit" in when the coyote first came out. Hooey.
I would do something like this:
https://www.levittownfordparts.com/sku/m-6007-m50s.html

 

[Balr14]

'17s don't have direct injection...

Oh, my bad! I am used to hearing about potential direct injection issues with my other cars, for the last 10 years.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

All 3 if my engines were #8 issues first and I just had a major vendor call me yesterday and they are still seeing a LOT of #8 issues.... so there is something to #8.....maybe last to get water and not sure how the oiling system is designed but piston cooling oil squiters could be different bore to bore depending on the last to get it....especially with the CAFE oil pressure bypass opening under 3k rpm running minimal oil pressure for that extra mpg....

That said one glaring thing to me that hasnt been mentioned as I've been thru all this multiple times is WHAT spark plug did he put in when he went back together with it....do NOT ask him look for yourself if he didnt go back in a step colder for boost there is your variable....
Its HIGHLY unlikely an engine runs 10k miles with god knows what abuse ( not being an ass but its obvious you race it as you raced almost immediately not saying nothing wrong that it actually bolsters my assumption a variable that didnt exist before the OPGs was introduced during that process). Let us know what they are......if he put stock plugs back in it there is your answer...

Agree with others as well it could have been slightly mistimed and or the PCM could have needed to relearn..in my experience nothing on your SCT, Ngauge Or HPtuners is as good as fords IDS doing a crank relearn it's always smoother ( possibly placebo) I do it via my tuner then I take it to them and it seems to drive smoother every time and have more negative knock in high load situations.....

One question that's particularly boggling me if it had ran fine for 10k miles smashing it why on earth tear down half the engine for a part that had proven itself to be just fine for a good while with same tune? That is a lot of work when you are gonna run the same tune and shifts?

The dyno shop is criminal that they bare bare bare minimum didnt run a basic compression test hell I run one after every pull there for a while....I mean bare minimum customer complaints down on power who in the world would slap it on dyno without a compression check.....

I also agree with others factory short block with maybe a no rebalance forged piston is your quickest out with the most bang for your buck and at least you came some strength...

Sucks man I know the feeling well even when you do everything in your power......mines nasty now and I'm happy but I kept my core to build cause who knows. Be glad you have gen 2 if your running pump gas....

I'd like to know what plug was used, definitely look at your fuel system and definitely have your injectors flowed while it's down or upgrade......
Best of luck I cant help but think that logically a variable was introduced during the OPG install.....which I dont understand the need for after all that time. Did you step up stages ect?
I can be simple as bad gas but knock sensors would usually see this...same with air leaks behind the MAF....as you should have seen that in trims...that MAF code is troubling....something happened during install unless he used wrong plugs be very hard to prove or if the valves were kissed take to a different shop or Ford in case they can provide something concrete

 

[Bluelightning]

What pulley were you running on it?

 

[GreenS550]

Those of us older hot rodders started building our own engines because no one cares about your engine like you do. The one thing that's different is the CPU and the need for an experienced tuner. When I put the Whipple on my 19 Bullitt last year, I double and triple checked virtually EVERYTHING. If I sell it, it won't have the resale value of a shop install but I know it was done right.

Back in the day, Ford had tons of literature on building engines. Talking 45 years ago. I build a 427 stroker that was amazing using Ford Motor Company recommendations. The phrase I remember most was "when torquing connecting rod bolts, if it 'feels' wrong, discard and replace".

These coyotes are a work of art. I truly hope you get things back on track!

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

What pulley were you running on it?

I was running 3.50 stock but the 3.75 is a PEACH...heavy torque and still pulls to 7600rpm no problems...loving it...since I went to the 3.75 she has lived...I recommend all stage 2 EB guys on 93 go to 3.75 from the stock 3.50....I'd built, tuned and race many cars and while we will find out VERY soon id guess its running 10.2-4 ish...IF you can hook this magnum instant on torque !!!

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Those of us older hot rodders started building our own engines because no one cares about your engine like you do. The one thing that's different is the CPU and the need for an experienced tuner. When I put the Whipple on my 19 Bullitt last year, I double and triple checked virtually EVERYTHING. If I sell it, it won't have the resale value of a shop install but I know it was done right.

Back in the day, Ford had tons of literature on building engines. Talking 45 years ago. I build a 427 stroker that was amazing using Ford Motor Company recommendations. The phrase I remember most was "when torquing connecting rod bolts, if it 'feels' wrong, discard and replace".

These coyotes are a work of art. I truly hope you get things back on track!

Dude I'm same way I HAD to have an ASE mechanic install mine for warranty and it's the first time in 30 years....you dead on NO ONE gives a shit about your car like you and when you get detail oriented and force the issue they get angry....

I can no longer go to my local Ford as I had been holding their hands thru my 2nd engine replacement to the point of providing daily print outs as a liason....when it was done and i found mistake after mistake which I had foresaw happening then they pretended I didn't, shit got real bad real quick....."one of us is a GD liar and it ain't me, I said you people should be ashamed and have a little more pride in your craft" it devolved from there and of coarse I had video, audio, photographic and witness as proof of me trying to save the rejects from themselves which I presented to the service manager and he agreed, they dont even know how much oil goes in their own engines....I now have to drive 23 miles to get the special trans fluid that your 10r80 comes 1.5qts to low from the factory with while they simultaneously provide you a very difficult means and procedure to check it ( I understand it seals out moisture but damn least fill it up correctly from factory )

It's a total shit show with dealers you ever find a good tech latch on and send him Christmas card with a real tip in it along with feeding him....they watch a video and think they are mechanics...if the screen doesnt show them the problem the most simple of issues are beyond most of them.....

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

What pulley were you running on it?

I'm sorry im so used to answering that question and wife was griping at me literally haha

 

[Problem5.0]

All 3 if my engines were #8 issues first and I just had a major vendor call me yesterday and they are still seeing a LOT of #8 issues.... so there is something to #8.....maybe last to get water and not sure how the oiling system is designed but piston cooling oil squiters could be different bore to bore depending on the last to get it....especially with the CAFE oil pressure bypass opening under 3k rpm running minimal oil pressure for that extra mpg....

That said one glaring thing to me that hasnt been mentioned as I've been thru all this multiple times is WHAT spark plug did he put in when he went back together with it....do NOT ask him look for yourself if he didnt go back in a step colder for boost there is your variable....
Its HIGHLY unlikely an engine runs 10k miles with god knows what abuse ( not being an ass but its obvious you race it as you raced almost immediately not saying nothing wrong that it actually bolsters my assumption a variable that didnt exist before the OPGs was introduced during that process). Let us know what they are......if he put stock plugs back in it there is your answer...

Agree with others as well it could have been slightly mistimed and or the PCM could have needed to relearn..in my experience nothing on your SCT, Ngauge Or HPtuners is as good as fords IDS doing a crank relearn it's always smoother ( possibly placebo) I do it via my tuner then I take it to them and it seems to drive smoother every time and have more negative knock in high load situations.....

One question that's particularly boggling me if it had ran fine for 10k miles smashing it why on earth tear down half the engine for a part that had proven itself to be just fine for a good while with same tune? That is a lot of work when you are gonna run the same tune and shifts?

The dyno shop is criminal that they bare bare bare minimum didnt run a basic compression test hell I run one after every pull there for a while....I mean bare minimum customer complaints down on power who in the world would slap it on dyno without a compression check.....

I also agree with others factory short block with maybe a no rebalance forged piston is your quickest out with the most bang for your buck and at least you came some strength...

Sucks man I know the feeling well even when you do everything in your power......mines nasty now and I'm happy but I kept my core to build cause who knows. Be glad you have gen 2 if your running pump gas....

I'd like to know what plug was used, definitely look at your fuel system and definitely have your injectors flowed while it's down or upgrade......
Best of luck I cant help but think that logically a variable was introduced during the OPG install.....which I dont understand the need for after all that time. Did you step up stages ect?
I can be simple as bad gas but knock sensors would usually see this...same with air leaks behind the MAF....as you should have seen that in trims...that MAF code is troubling....something happened during install unless he used wrong plugs be very hard to prove or if the valves were kissed take to a different shop or Ford in case they can provide something concrete

8k miles were put on the same whipple setup before i bought the car. 2K miles were put on by me.... i didnt race the car much maybe a max of 5 times , including the ones i mentioned. I the reason for the OPGs is i tend to bounce off the rev limiter from time to time doing different activities. from what i heard this is what breaks them. i wouldnt say i abused the car , but it has seen a little time side ways. Nothing super crazy. I wanted the OPGs to limit the risk of engine failure but yet here we are. I was told the plugs were not changed so i am guessing the kit plugs are still in the car. The car is at ford right now and is being torn down by them so i guess ill see if there if the damage to the valves from possible mis timing.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

8k miles were put on the same whipple setup before i bought the car. 2K miles were put on by me.... i didnt race the car much maybe a max of 5 times , including the ones i mentioned. I the reason for the OPGs is i tend to bounce off the rev limiter from time to time doing different activities. from what i heard this is what breaks them. i wouldnt say i abused the car , but it has seen a little time side ways. Nothing super crazy. I wanted the OPGs to limit the risk of engine failure but yet here we are. I was told the plugs were not changed so i am guessing the kit plugs are still in the car. The car is at ford right now and is being torn down by them so i guess ill see if there if the damage to the valves from possible mis timing.

Hey just for the record that was terrible wording by me, what I REALLY meant is what most here would consider abuse but I consider driving it how it was designed.....I apologize cause that didnt sound right I just meant you were putting it thru its paces....the same things were leveled at me as engines failed and I'm an older grippled man who barely got on his car and it STILL hasnt made a pass at the track but it's coming.....
If anyone can sympathize it's me you were doing what you thought would make it last but when I was still new to Ford people made it seem like OPGs were no big deal same as sliding a cam in an LS....naw its HUGE and difficult in care especially gen 3 coyote which uses gt350 oil pump and plastic welded to oil pan pick up tube aka oil pan has to come down....

I've been bitten everytime I tried to do right I'm VERY empathetic for you trust me.......I was hoping he used wrong plugs as thsts an.easy thing to prove now I hope he mistimed it....

Best of luck

 

[Wvmike]

there were no signs of engine damage from the racing ... i drove the car about a week before actually getting on the dyno ... I definitely agree a hurt motor on the dyno is dumb but the tuner couldn't find anything wrong with the car before doing a pull.

Technicians did say they heard a lot of knock in the motor during the pull but the tuner reported there was nothing on the sensors before it blew

You may have found your problem. Techs heard audible knock during the pull, but nothing from the sensors. Are the knock sensors plugged in, bolted down and turned on in the tune?

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

You may have found your problem. Techs heard audible knock during the pull, but nothing from the sensors. Are the knock sensors plugged in, bolted down and turned on in the tune?

I mean it's TRUE if they beat themselves to death something should have been picked up...i didnt know it was a car he recently bought but I'm wondering if someone has been at the whipple tune, Including desensitizing the know sensor..
May pull it and send it to them to make sure it hasnt been modified

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