Bwahahaha, what?!?!? Why don't they just go ahead and make it cast iron too? Don't forget to grease your z-bar!
Enthusiast cars don't come w/ 4 speeds. This is the 21st century.
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Which engine for 2015 Mustang?
- Thread starter CoyoteMan
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Enthusiast cars don't come w/ 4 speeds. This is the 21st century.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
With only four speeds in the box, it's your pick of at least one of the following to (needlessly) give up:
A low enough 1st gear for easy minimal-clutch-slip starts and really low speed driving (traffic, or in the pits/paddock).
A tall enough top gear for relaxed highway cruise reasons and so you aren't rpm-limited to 30 or 40 mph below what your power would otherwise support.
Close enough gear spacing so it won't feel like you're missing an "in-between" gear or two.
Norm
A low enough 1st gear for easy minimal-clutch-slip starts and really low speed driving (traffic, or in the pits/paddock).
A tall enough top gear for relaxed highway cruise reasons and so you aren't rpm-limited to 30 or 40 mph below what your power would otherwise support.
Close enough gear spacing so it won't feel like you're missing an "in-between" gear or two.
Norm
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Much better low end torque at rpms below where the turbo-4 sees any boost to cover for its smaller displacement. Such situations occur more often in daily driving than you think, and can be cumbersome to deal with (if you've got a manual) or just noisier and thrashier than necessary (with an automatic).
Norm
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Kingranch
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- #64
A lot of V6 engines are starting to get MPG that come close to matching the gas mileage of 4 cylinder engines, so the gas efficiency argument isn't as slam dunk for the turbo 4 as some think.
One advantage I can think of for the V6 is just displacement overall. For anyone considering aftermarket forced induction it's just more displacement (and theoretically more resulting power) to work with than a turbo 4.
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Theoretically, yes. Only difference is, as an example, the 3.5 ecoboost comes w/ a forged crank and rods...it's reasonable to expect the same for this 2.3...not to mention piston/ring locations being designed specifically for forced induction. A blown factory V6 will not match the power capabilities of this 4 cylinder dollar for dollar when reliability is a factor.
Just for fun...why is this?
I merely think it would be an absolute blast with a 4-speed manual. I fully realize that enthusiast cars don't come with 4-speed manuals, but does that mean that they shouldn't? The Cobra Jet is equipped with a 3-speed auto (w/ a full manual valve body), the COPO Camaro is equipped with a 2-speed auto (w/ a full manual valve body), and the Drag Pack Challenger is equipped with a 2-speed auto (w/ a full manual valve body).
There is nothing a 4 speed can do better than an equiv shifting and strong 6 or 7 speed...unless you consider accelerating slower or getting worse gas mileage 'better'.
Cobra Jet/COPO are drag cars. Strong automatics w/ good converters are king for ease of tuning, reliability and consistency. You familiar w/ how to tune a clutch?
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
For a single dedicated purpose, with transmission gear and axle ratios chosen to optimize that purpose, four might well be enough.
It's when cars have to meet a wider range of uses that only four becomes not enough. Example - a 4-speed car geared for the dragstrip won't be geared right for daily driving or necessarily for a road course, and it certainly would be handicapped as far as meeting today's emissions and fuel economy requirements.
If you gear everything right with a 6-speed, you have an easy gear to get rolling with/launch at the strip without needing 4.xx axle gears, tight enough gear spacing to not have a gap big enough to fit another gear for most any driving, plus a tall highway cruising gear. Why would you even want to be running your 400+ HP engine at 4000 rpm to only be going 75 mph . . . for two or three hours at a time?
Comparing against the automatics is both difficult and misleading. Remember that the torque converter is much better at keeping you from accidentally bogging the engine than a conventional MT clutch is, and that while it is "slipping" (aka allowing the engine to rev above the rpm required by road speed and mechanical gearing) it is also multiplying the torque coming into it from the engine side. From rest, this "stall ratio" in a performance torque converter can easily be greater than 2.0, which greatly reduces the need for a really deep 1st gear ratio across the planetary gearsets. Low gear in a 2-speed Powerglide is about 1.8 to 1. That's not even a good 2nd gear in a manual transmission designed to work with axle ratios much taller (smaller numerically) than about 3.55, and a manual tranny would still have another gear between that 1.8 and the 1.00 top.
On edit . . . why would it be difficult to look at a 6-speed as being a 4-speed plus a 5-6 gate that you can choose to either use or not?
Norm
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You sound a tad naive.
Here's why a 4-speed would be a good option:
1. Modern 4-speeds can weigh as little as 63 lbs. This means that the gearbox going to eat up far LESS horsepower when transmitting the power from the crank to the wheels.
2. Because 4-speeds have fewer moving parts, the design is inherently stronger and more reliable. Also, if something does break, then it's a whole lot easier to fix.
3. 4-speeds generally cost less than 6 and 7-speeds.
4. More gears don't always equate to faster acceleration times. Just look at the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport vs. Cobra Jet Mustang. There's a reason why the Mustang can accelerate far quicker than the Veyron even though it has 4 less gears and 770 less horsepower.
5. Sure, gas mileage would take a hit, but it's a sports car not an eco-hippie-mobile.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
You still can't use dedicated race car logic for configuring a street car that sees a much wider range of uses. I'll give you point #3, but #4 depends on specifics (and I suspect that you have to be cherry-picking acceleration stats to come up with that Mustang vs Veyron comparison . . . so I'll pick from 200 on up).
You make it sound like 'sports' and some semblance of fuel economy aren't supposed to happen in the same car. Unless you're still in your unregistered race-only car, they are. Both for certification for sale/gas guzzler tax purposes and for the case of a daily driver where having to buy gas three times a week every week just to get to work has gotten old. And that's just off the top of my head.
Norm
You make it sound like 'sports' and some semblance of fuel economy aren't supposed to happen in the same car. Unless you're still in your unregistered race-only car, they are. Both for certification for sale/gas guzzler tax purposes and for the case of a daily driver where having to buy gas three times a week every week just to get to work has gotten old. And that's just off the top of my head.
Norm
S550Boss
Well-Known Member
It's a sports coupe, not a sports car.
And it's subject to the same Obama 54.5 MPG CAFE laws as everything else, and it has to make it's contribution. So, there will be 6 gears at a minimum, and 7, 8, 9, and 10 as the new transmissions come online.
The big question is whether or not the miserable MT82 will be part of the game, at least for a while. Getrag has so much to offer, and new designs coming. Lets hope this truck transmission goes away for good next year.
Im actually looking forward to the turbo 4. I believe since Mercedes cla amg and civic type r. Are getting 350+ hp motors. I believe ford will bring more power to the game. Like around 370+. Add that and the 10 speed tranny auto them and chevy are going in together with. Will be a 40+ mpg mustang. Me myself would get a stick of course. The potential in the 2.3 could be the best any 4 cyl ever. Especially if ford makes it all forged internals. If thats the case the. Put on some bolt ons. A e85 tune. Your looking at 400 hp at the wheels. In a good light car with irs. Would be the ultimate driving machine.
1. Weight has nothing to do w/ horsepower as you're arguing it. I'm curious as to your knowledge of the inner workings of a gearbox as well as physics/thermodynamics to make such a ridiculous claim.
2. Fewer parts has nothing to do w/ reliability. Modern cars are far more reliable than their 'simpler' counterparts from 50 years ago, wouldn't you agree?
3. Not enough to justify their use.
4. Are you serious? Haha. Why don't we just compare a top fuel dragster to your Scion? More reasonably imagine your Scion w/ only 4 gears, with an appropriate spread to account for having no OD...suddenly becomes much less appealing doesn't it?
5. I've never understood why most people think these mutually exclusive...buddy's blown Z06 makes a helluva lotta power to the rear wheels and gets almost 30 mpg on the interstate. Guess he's an 'eco-hippie' as you say. I guess I'm an eco-hippie for putting a 5 speed in my big block Plymouth? Or is it cuz I don't want to have to compromise? W/ the 5 speed I'll have a lower first gear than the 4 speeds that originally came in the cars, as well as having OD. Faster + better gas mileage. Not sure what you don't understand...?
...and I'm the one who sounds naive?
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