VP racing M2 upper lube safe for cats??

[Bmaughan]

Hi there, I'm curious if anyone could give me info on VP's M2 upper lube for alcohol fuels. Does anyone know if it is cat/O2 sensor safe?
Pretty simple composition:
Barium bis(dinonylnaphthalenesulphonate) - 1%-10%
Methyloxirane homopolymer - 90%-99%

Anyone have any petrochem knowledge they'd like to drop?!

I attached the actual SDS for those curious.

thanks in advance for the help!

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[sigintel]

TLDR: Cats maybe good, but spark plug and 02 sensor maybe best checked over time if you are counting on them to run the tune to ragged edge.
Be more concerned with conductive ash fouling your plugs or O2sensor than cats?
Ask VP?
If no VP answer, call the fuel lab at shell Houston. Super cool engineers.

............................................
Too much fuel or hydrocarbon can overheat cats. Unburned coolant can foul/cool cats and keep surface from reacting w exhaust as well as make carbon soot stick to cats and 'coke' into fully plugged cats.

Generally, hydrocarbon based stuffs will burn clean off cats if only small amounts occur at a time (like typical cold start).

Metals and metals oxides may react:
lead monoxide and platinum metal is classic lead fouling of cats (forms new metal oxide compound).
So the metals are likely biggest concern...
Barium is added to the AL2O3 Alumina substrate to increase stability above 1000C, so its doubtful barium in the exhaust would hurt the reactive catalyst surface.
Barium was also added to platinum for diesels no accelerate NOx to Ba(NO3)2 [Barium Nitrate].
So prolly all good....

Calcium or Barium bis(dinonylnaphthalenesulphonate)?
Both are effectively salts of DinNSA used to protect against ESD/static discharge type fire. Basically, think Naptha modified to hold onto a conductive metal atom to help increase conductivity to reduce static electric charge. Not sure what the ratio of that additive is, but I am guessing <5%.
Its also added to machining coolant/corrosion protection and some lubricants.
Guessing the (post combustion) Barium or Calcium Oxide wont adhere to cats since it doesn't foul turbine sections in jet engines.
Barium derivatives in carbonate form or free from sulphation would be bad to inhale as the natural swallowing reflex pulls reactants into the GI system and Barium could then cross into blood as a soluble heavy metal (bad).
Just dont breath the exhaust when car is cold running rich and partially combusted exhaust could be present...
Would be interesting to hear why Barium instead of Calcium....?


Hydrocarbons without metals:
Methyloxirane homopolymer == Polypropylene glycol (PAG/PPG)
Yup, AC compressor oil. In small quantities, this just burns with rest of fuel.

 

[Bmaughan]

TLDR: Cats maybe good, but spark plug and 02 sensor maybe best checked over time if you are counting on them to run the tune to ragged edge.
Be more concerned with conductive ash fouling your plugs or O2sensor than cats?
Ask VP?
If no VP answer, call the fuel lab at shell Houston. Super cool engineers.

............................................
Too much fuel or hydrocarbon can overheat cats. Unburned coolant can foul/cool cats and keep surface from reacting w exhaust as well as make carbon soot stick to cats and 'coke' into fully plugged cats.

Generally, hydrocarbon based stuffs will burn clean off cats if only small amounts occur at a time (like typical cold start).

Metals and metals oxides may react:
lead monoxide and platinum metal is classic lead fouling of cats (forms new metal oxide compound).
So the metals are likely biggest concern...
Barium is added to the AL2O3 Alumina substrate to increase stability above 1000C, so its doubtful barium in the exhaust would hurt the reactive catalyst surface.
Barium was also added to platinum for diesels no accelerate NOx to Ba(NO3)2 [Barium Nitrate].
So prolly all good....

Calcium or Barium bis(dinonylnaphthalenesulphonate)?
Both are effectively salts of DinNSA used to protect against ESD/static discharge type fire. Basically, think Naptha modified to hold onto a conductive metal atom to help increase conductivity to reduce static electric charge. Not sure what the ratio of that additive is, but I am guessing <5%.
Its also added to machining coolant/corrosion protection and some lubricants.
Guessing the (post combustion) Barium or Calcium Oxide wont adhere to cats since it doesn't foul turbine sections in jet engines.
Barium derivatives in carbonate form or free from sulphation would be bad to inhale as the natural swallowing reflex pulls reactants into the GI system and Barium could then cross into blood as a soluble heavy metal (bad).
Just dont breath the exhaust when car is cold running rich and partially combusted exhaust could be present...
Would be interesting to hear why Barium instead of Calcium....?


Hydrocarbons without metals:
Methyloxirane homopolymer == Polypropylene glycol (PAG/PPG)
Yup, AC compressor oil. In small quantities, this just burns with rest of fuel.

Wow... there’s that knowledge drop I was looking for! Haha
Thanks so much for all the helpful info!

So no real concern for cats it would seem.
Would you think plugs/sensor fouling is that likely?

what do you think about this? A better/safer alternative?

https://www.powerpluslubricants.com/store/p62/POWERTOPLUBE.html

 

[sigintel]

Wow... there’s that knowledge drop I was looking for! Haha
Thanks so much for all the helpful info!

So no real concern for cats it would seem.
Would you think plugs/sensor fouling is that likely?

what do you think about this? A better/safer alternative?

https://www.powerpluslubricants.com/store/p62/POWERTOPLUBE.html

I posted a fuel mix somewhere on the site that came from a friend that raced aircraft. He favored using aircraft 2 stroke oils to add lubricity for E85 mixes.
That is nearly useless second hand info so you really need to understand you are experimenting on your own unless you just go with recommendations from a major company that makes race fuel and additives.

The reason the first additive is race use only is the Barium. Its heavy metal like lead so would never be allowed in retail use fuels due to large scale human inhalation/exposure.
Further, most plug and sensor fouling additive issues are in regard to insuring engines maintain emissions over a decade lifespan.
Thats not you. You aren't going to put 100,000 miles on a race motor run at the power densities you are shooting for. After a season or two of passes, I assume you are planning to replace plugs and/or sensors as needed.
You should really be asking VP.

 

[Bmaughan]

I posted a fuel mix somewhere on the site that came from a friend that raced aircraft. He favored using aircraft 2 stroke oils to add lubricity for E85 mixes.
That is nearly useless second hand info so you really need to understand you are experimenting on your own unless you just go with recommendations from a major company that makes race fuel and additives.

The reason the first additive is race use only is the Barium. Its heavy metal like lead so would never be allowed in retail use fuels due to large scale human inhalation/exposure.
Further, most plug and sensor fouling additive issues are in regard to insuring engines maintain emissions over a decade lifespan.
Thats not you. You aren't going to put 100,000 miles on a race motor run at the power densities you are shooting for. After a season or two of passes, I assume you are planning to replace plugs and/or sensors as needed.
You should really be asking VP.

Gotcha, that makes sense.. I’m probably somewhere in between.. I don’t really race the car but I’m running e85 full time so I’m looking for anything that decrease wear and increase longevity. I talked with VPs phone tech which wasn’t really helpful...he said it should be fine because there are no metallic components in the product which seems to be inaccurate haha...

 

[Bmaughan]

I know it’s not as simple as my question but just humor me haha...
Since you have some serious chemistry knowledge would you mind looking at this SDS? Looks to me like it would be o2 and cat safe...

 

[sigintel]

Lol, that looks like a cosmetics recipe!
Prolly smells like Grape Koolaid with almond and vanilla..
Maybe reminiscent of Juul vapor cartidges.
Basically thats paraffin oil mixed with benzene chain containing light weight chemistry like phthalates and benz aldehydes etc.
Everything else is just flavorings and perfume grade additives. Not sure how good it works, but prolly smells fantastic!
That recipe looks like most of that stuff would flash to vapor and/or oxidize very easily so should burn fairly clean.
If you want to pour something in the tank that makes you emotionally feel good due to smells: Power Plus FTW.

I would run the other recipe that looks like proper weight (chain length) selected compressor oil. Engines are compressors basically. Even if it you foul the 02 sensors over time, they cost would be nothing compared to what you spend on the additive and just a disposable cost of running race ethanol. Further info suggests the Barium is only for race gas due to human toxicity issues. Any barium oxides in the exhaust should get reacted with the NOx and get stripped off O2 sensor or Cats if light deposits form briefly during cold start up.

If you running retail pump gas E85: all the lubricity additives needed are already in the fuel and you dont need any of this stuff.

 

[Bmaughan]

that’s really helpful actually! So I am running retail pump e85. I didn’t know there were lubricity additives in pump e85?? Good to know!

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