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raidernixon

raidernixon

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Nice driving very smooth. I take it you weren't pushing too hard as I don't hear the tires making much noise and my experience is PS4s squeal like mad at the limit. Maybe it's the microphone.
Anyway, would you describe the handling as neutral with a tendency toward understeer?
Good to hear that the rear grip is so good.
How is the steering feel? Do you get much feedback? Overboosted, under boosted?
Thanks and congrats.
This was certainly one of the easier sessions in the video, and you are correct about the PS4S squeal!. We had just blown up the clutch in our 16 GT so I wanted to make sure we left with at least one driveable car lol.

The steering felt tight and gave enough feedback to be more intentional than what I experienced with the 16 GT. I feel the GT500 was even more precise and gave more feedback, perhaps 20% more (but you have to work for it...turning those fatties up front takes considerably more effort).

I feel like with the skinnies in front, this car has a tendency to understeer a bit at it's threshold, but yes, overall it felt very neutral. I would say it's fairly neutral on steering boost (it felt right...not too much or too little). I suspect the handling package setup will drastically alter these characteristics, especially with camber adjustments. By the way, the supplemental Mach 1 manual does have a recommended track alignment setup.





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raidernixon

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...Reason I was so interested in the Mach is because of the engine and handling. I went through a engine on my second 350 and would prefer not to experience that again. If the handling is on par with the 350 that would be awesome. To say that there isn’t much difference between a 350 and a slightly modded GT is a stretch.
I suspect the Mach 1 with the handling package is the car you are looking for. I have never driven a 350, but the handling of the Mach 1 feels highly refined in comparison to the GT. It feels just about as balanced as the GT500, but not as fast of course.
 

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This was certainly one of the easier sessions in the video, and you are correct about the PS4S squeal!. We had just blown up the clutch in our 16 GT so I wanted to make sure we left with at least one driveable car lol.

The steering felt tight and gave enough feedback to be more intentional than what I experienced with the 16 GT. I feel the GT500 was even more precise and gave more feedback, perhaps 20% more (but you have to work for it...turning those fatties up front takes considerably more effort).

I feel like with the skinnies in front, this car has a tendency to understeer a bit at it's threshold, but yes, overall it felt very neutral. I would say it's fairly neutral on steering boost (it felt right...not too much or too little). I suspect the handling package setup will drastically alter these characteristics, especially with camber adjustments. By the way, the supplemental Mach 1 manual does have a recommended track alignment setup.
If the possibility for camber adjustment is the same between the HP/none HP the known differences are the added aero which seems to be quite substantial by reading and hearing the information from Ford. These parts can be retrofitted if need be!

Other differences are wheels and tires and where the tires will be a bit of a "cheat" :D with those massive Cup2s, knowing how the 215s I have on my car behave once warm I can imagine the mechanical grip a 315/305 setup with Cup2s will give compared to 275/255 PS4S tires. With lighter aftermarket wheels and Cup2s the differences will be even bigger I guess.

What will be difficult to achieve are the mappings for ESC/EPAS which seems to be different on the HP compared to the none-HP.

All in all sounds like a great package as such
 
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raidernixon

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What will be difficult to achieve are the mappings for ESC/EPAS which seems to be different on the HP compared to the none-HP.
This is exactly what I plan to do, retrofit the handling package components. As a side note, Ford's adjustable camber plates are Ok, but after messing with the ones on the GT500, I now understand why @Epiphany suggested that I look into a set of vorshlag plates. This is probably the route I will go with the Mach 1, and possibly source a set of GT350/PP2 wheels for track use along with the aero items.

Where have you seen the information concerning the epas difference? I knew there would be few other differences but I haven't had any luck finding more detailed information.
 

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This is exactly what I plan to do, retrofit the handling package components. As a side note, Ford's adjustable camber plates are Ok, but after messing with the ones on the GT500, I now understand why @Epiphany suggested that I look into a set of vorshlag plates. This is probably the route I will go with the Mach 1, and possibly source a set of GT350/PP2 wheels for track use along with the aero items.

Where have you seen the information concerning the epas difference? I knew there would be few other differences but I haven't had any luck finding more detailed information.
I saw it in the media info released by Ford, I believe it also is mentioned in a comparison sheet as well where the GT, M1 HP/none HP were compared.

Edit found the comparison sheet at least:
Seems to be a difference on the rear sway bar as well. HP bar is solid instead of hollow.
Not sure how much impact that has as the diameter is the same

Not sure how accurate the chart is, as an example nothing is mentioned regarding that the 10R80 is revised

1615291049210.png
 
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Really appreciate you posting your on-track experience. Makes me excited for delivery of my car (ordered the handling package, though I've heard that the camber plates only add about -1.0 to -1.2 degrees over neg camber over street setting). I have some experience with GT350 on track as my neighbor has one, that is now really optimized for track, and we drive each other's cars here and there . I'll be curious to see what the comparison is. The GT350 is a track monster, the initial turn-in is real nice and crisp and the cornering grip with Cup2s is really excellent. Only things I thought were not ideal were the brakes were just "okay" but there were no track pads at the time and the motor is not nearly as smooth as a standard cross-plane crank motor. Motor of course sounds real nice.
 

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The calibration in the VDM module as well as the ABS module is no doubt unique to the HP Mach due to the tire/wheel combination in comparison to non-HP Mach 1's.
 

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It was good to see the Mach1 at the track this weekend in person. Bummer on the orangstang. I ran a personal best on those MP4S so dont discount them too much. Cya out there soon. By the way Thursday is s550 track day starting at noon. Bring it back out for some more laps or show and tell would be just as cool.

9261999A-0CA2-4390-93AB-8123B409BBB7.jpeg
 

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The calibration in the VDM module as well as the ABS module is no doubt unique to the HP Mach due to the tire/wheel combination in comparison to non-HP Mach 1's.
Though some still believe you can make any S550 from a base GT by just changing mechanical part. Many still don't account for the electronics that go behind those parts. It's been many years since electronics didn't play a factor and surprised to still see these statements so often!

Statement:

" To say that there isn’t much difference between a 350 and a slightly modded GT is a stretch."

Response:

"But there’s not, the only structural difference IS the LCA/spindle design. Everything else is all in spring rates and damping, which can be alleviated with the RIGHT parts selection on a GT"
 

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But there’s not

the only structural difference IS the LCA/spindle design. Everything else is all in spring rates and damping, which can be alleviated with the RIGHT parts selection on a GT
As a past owner of both a 2015 GT and a 2016 GT350R, and who put both on the track, this is not a true statement. There are several structural differences between at GT and a GT350.

-Brake setup on the GT350 is unique. Unlike the GT, their caliper mounting bolts screw into the uprights parallel to the brake rotor rather than perpendicular to it. This radial mounting is more rigid than the conventional method and results in less pad kickback during hard usage, making for more consistent braking. It also reduces heat transfer from the rotor to the hub, which helps wheel-bearing life.

-The GT350's aluminum uprights that have different suspension pickup points than the GT and the kingpin axis needed is located farther outward and the pickup points of the two lower suspension links are therefore farther apart. The GT350's upright is also significantly lighter than the one on the GT.

-The inner pivot on the GT350's front suspension’s lateral link uses a solid ball joint in place of a compliant bushing used on the GT.

-Another difference is the winding of the rear springs. On the GT, the springs are wound in the same direction. On the GT350, these springs are wound in opposite directions to eliminate uneven spring performance between the inboard and outboard springs during cornering. As result, the GT350 features different rear lower control arms.

-Everything forward of the firewall is specific to the GT350, including the use of stiffer carbon fiber-composite materials which provide chassis stiffness and weigh reduction.

-GT350 received additional chassis bracing throughout that the GT does not get.

As others have pointed out, it's the combination of engineering and tuning that makes the difference between the GT350 and the GT. If you have been in the hobby any amount of time, you will have seen people buy the "best" parts separately and bolt them onto their vehicle only to have someone else who spent much less outperform them on their venue of choice.

You can buy every available part from the GT350 and bolt it onto your GT and you will still not be at the same level of performance as the factory GT350.
 

jake_zx2

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-Brake setup on the GT350 is unique.
Ah yes, brakes... the most important suspension component :facepalm:

no fucking shit the brakes are different. We’re talking about suspension components, not brakes. Like, obviously there are differences elsewhere on the car

-The GT350's aluminum uprights that have different suspension pickup points than the GT and the kingpin axis needed is located farther outward and the pickup points of the two lower suspension links are therefore farther apart. The GT350's upright is also significantly lighter than the one on the GT.
So different spindle design... interesting :facepalm:

-The inner pivot on the GT350's front suspension’s lateral link uses a solid ball joint in place of a compliant bushing used on the GT.
So part of the LCA design... interesting :facepalm:

-Another difference is the winding of the rear springs. On the GT, the springs are wound in the same direction. On the GT350, these springs are wound in opposite directions to eliminate uneven spring performance between the inboard and outboard springs during cornering. As result, the GT350 features different rear lower control arms.
So, spring rates and LCAs... interesting :facepalm:

-Everything forward of the firewall is specific to the GT350, including the use of stiffer carbon fiber-composite materials which provide chassis stiffness and weigh reduction.
And once again, a non-suspension part

Also, those “stiffer carbon fiber-composite materials” are only used on the radiator support brace. Don’t drink too much of that kool-aid

-GT350 received additional chassis bracing throughout that the GT does not get.
Once again, stop reading the brochure. Manufacturers consider a spring upgrade to be “unique chassis tuning”. Nothing about the actual structure of the car is different

So, we end up right back where we started, which is that the only structural difference in suspension between the GT and GT350 is the spindle/LCA design, and everything else is just revised spring rates

As others have pointed out, it's the combination of engineering and tuning that makes the difference between the GT350 and the GT. If you have been in the hobby any amount of time, you will have seen people buy the "best" parts separately and bolt them onto their vehicle only to have someone else who spent much less outperform them on their venue of choice.
These people you speak of also usually think Steeda is the “best”, so...

You can buy every available part from the GT350 and bolt it onto your GT and you will still not be at the same level of performance as the factory GT350.
And this is simply foolish. There is NO structural difference between any S550 chassis, from the Ecoboost to the GT500. You actually CAN take every piece off of a GT350 and slap in on an Ecoboost, and it’ll drive exactly the same as a GT350 if you don’t let that placebo effect impact you. I’m sorry, your car isn’t as “special” as you think... it’s very replicable and replaceable
 

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Here, I’ll put it this way so you guys can understand...

If you did a Shelby brake swap on a GT (which means transferring spindles/LCAs), reflagged the EPAS and driver assist modules, and had both that car and the GT350 on the same upgraded coilovers, sway bars, and bushing kit (because yes, the GT350 CAN be upgraded, it’s not the end-all-be-all that you think it is), the 2 cars would be completely indiscernible from each other in terms of suspension feel
 

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And this is simply foolish. There is NO structural difference between any S550 chassis, from the Ecoboost to the GT500. You actually CAN take every piece off of a GT350 and slap in on an Ecoboost, and it’ll drive exactly the same as a GT350 if you don’t let that placebo effect impact you. I’m sorry, your car isn’t as “special” as you think... it’s very replicable and replaceable
You are speaking to things you have no first-hand knowledge of and acting as if you are the expert on the given subject. I'm no expert either, but I have owned and driven both the trim levels in question on road courses. Of course you could take a base Mustang chassis and add all the GT350 chassis reinforcements and unique parts to it (that is the nature of mass production, duh) but if you don't also have the electronic /calibration tuning that supports those changes, it will NOT drive exactly the same as a GT350. This is not debatable but I somehow thing you will try to argue anyway.

BTW, I no longer own the GT or the GT350R, so neither of them are "my car" that you think I have to defend as special.
 

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Of course you could take a base Mustang chassis and add all the GT350 chassis reinforcements and unique parts to it (that is the nature of mass production, duh)
And this here is my exact problem with it. You have cars like BMW M-cars and Porsches and such that truly have unique upgrades that would require a high level of engineering prowess, mechanical knowledge, and tooling to even try to replicate, and it still probably won’t be 100%. You know, they have ACTUAL chassis upgrades, unique bodywork and material use on structural portions of the car, unique suspension geometry and mount points... hell, in the case of the 911 GT3, they change the whole front suspension design from MacPherson strut in the standard 911 to double wishbone in the GT3. These are cars that are ACTUALLY special compared to their lower-range siblings

I would probably feel less animosity towards the Shelby cars if they had more of this uniqueness and effort put into them, but they’re all still the same heavy stamped steel construction, they both have the same torsional rigidity, they both have MacPherson strut front suspension, they both have the same flawed rear LCA mount geometry... all the shortfalls of the GT are still present on the Shelby models, and that’s the problem with them
 

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And this here is my exact problem with it. You have cars like BMW M-cars and Porsches and such that truly have unique upgrades that would require a high level of engineering prowess, mechanical knowledge, and tooling to even try to replicate, and it still probably won’t be 100%. You know, they have ACTUAL chassis upgrades, unique bodywork and material use on structural portions of the car, unique suspension geometry and mount points... hell, in the case of the 911 GT3, they change the whole front suspension design from MacPherson strut in the standard 911 to double wishbone in the GT3. These are cars that are ACTUALLY special compared to their lower-range siblings

I would probably feel less animosity towards the Shelby cars if they had more of this uniqueness and effort put into them, but they’re all still the same heavy stamped steel construction, they both have the same torsional rigidity, they both have MacPherson strut front suspension, they both have the same flawed rear LCA mount geometry... all the shortfalls of the GT are still present on the Shelby models, and that’s the problem with them
To be fair, that is YOUR issue with them. Hell, people complained about the MSRP of the GT350R. There's no doubt Ford could take the same formula and engineer a Mustang that is divorced from the basic Mustang and charge accordingly but why when you can build a car that competes with what Porsche offers for less money?
 
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