Unofficial Off Topic Thread

[Caballus]

Hello; From a personal perspective that is acceptable as I do not plan on having a dog again. I just do not see people going for such a thing. A fantasy at best from where i sit.

The last dog I had which was all mine was trained well. I took the time from when he was a pup. Most folks i know might make it to paper training.

But lets expand on your fantasy for a moment. Say you manage to get some sort of person training law on the books. What will happen to all the dogs people currently have if the person fails the training course or just refuses to take the classes? I can come up with more issues.

Wasn't commenting on your specific dog ownership or training experience. Have no reason to doubt it.

I think a dog training requirement would be a long road, just like getting rid of puppy mills is a long road. At least with the latter, the country has been making progress over the last couple of decades.

To expand, I'll use examples. Some countries (or states/provinces within countries) categorize dogs according to breed. Category 1 includes so-called aggressive breeds and powerful breeds: American Staffordshire Terrier, Rotweiler, Cane Corso, etc. Some places will say you can't import these breeds, so the laws apply to the ones that are from there. Others say you can't breed them there, so the laws apply if you move there.

The laws, in general, require behavioral training for the owner and dog, to include an approved behavioral test. Beyond basic obedience (sit, stay), the training focuses on conditioning the dog so it is confident in different situations. A dog can attack due to prey drive, but more often than not, they are being defensive or protective and attack out of fear (i.e., in their minds, defend). This is counter-intuitive when dealing with a powerful dog.

Some behavioral tests are better than others. For example, in my opinion, one known as "SAFER" is not a good test, because it uses props (dolls, fake arms, etc.) to provoke the dog, as if the dog can't differentiate between biting a fake arm (a toy) and a human. Anyway, places with these laws tend to have fair tests.

Requirements vary, but in general, if the dog fails the test, it must be muzzled in public, cannot be left alone when you go into the store (dog hitching posts are common outside grocery stores and bakeries in some parts of Europe), you're required to have additional liability insurance, and maybe a couple thousand dollar (equiv) deposit with the local government. Bottom line, the owner must prove they are responsible and committed. The dog can actually be taken away from the owner, but I've never heard of that to happening from a test. That's usually done if the dog actually harms a person or another animal.

So, is it a fantasy? In most parts of the US, maybe. America formed differently and therefore we have a different dog culture. However, it is achievable, and the examples are not only from Europe. On the cultural difference, places that have laws such as these, also make it illegal for you to leave any dog alone for more than a few hours at a time, require dogs to get walked or taken out to play for at least an hour a day, prohibit their ears or tails from being cropped, etc. You can take your dog almost anywhere and no one thinks twice about it. In fact, most have laws that say that dogs are not just property. They can feel and sense, and therefore have rights. That doesn't mean that a dog that harms won't be euthanized. It just means it's not the default answer when a dog (owner) screws up.

Finally, I chose that link, because it's all over the place, as is the case with most "info" about dogs.

Good off-topic conversation, as always.

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[sk47]

Hello; Following is a post made in a different forum. It is some years old.

Hello; Just did a search and found some more sites about dog bites. For what it is worth my dog was a husky and is on the list. I loved my husky but understood that he needed watching. I was not blind to the potential damage the dog was capable of. He was well treated but quick death to any small animals that got into my fenced yard. I never took him around people off a lead. I was lucky that he never attacked a person.

It seems to me that those who defend the aggressive breeds without considering the evidence are making things worse. The dog attacks cannot be just about the owners, there must be some connection with the traits of the particular breeds. As far as I know, no one is disputing that labs are water loving dogs. That some dog breeds make better trackers. That some breeds are better at herding than others and so on. That the many traits of various dogs are pretty much breed specific seems to be understood. Why then does the tendency for some breeds to be more aggressive seem so hard to accept.



http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-breeds-most-likely-to-kill.html



http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

 

[sk47]

Hello; As to the nature of owners picking known aggressive dogs, such is not always the case. My Husky was bought by my brother in law as a pup. He could not keep the pup at his apartment so brought it to me and my first wife. We lived out in the country at the time. Jim never came back to get the dog and in the course of things the husky became my dog.

I trained him to a decent point but never took for granted the potential. The dog was fine around people but small animals and other dogs had little chance. He did for a number of small animals who wondered into the fenced in yard.

The first two images are before as a pup and after as an adult. The third image is my brother in law, now deceased, with the dog as a pup.

 

[sk47]

Is It Illegal to Warn Other Drivers About a Speed Trap? (msn.com)

Hello; Seems to be legal in TN.

 

[sk47]

Hello; The first two images look worse than the reality. A friend brought his heavier dog around for a visit. My husky was just too quick and both dogs being male had to establish some dominance. The other dog was not hurt as i called the husky(Benjamin) off right away. Only thing hurt was my friends pride in his dog. There was not a fight and I would not have allowed a fight.

The second image is the husky in one of his favorite places. He was kept inside the house most of the time. I had a place with a fenced in yard. During winter the dog would just as soon be outside as much as possible. He suffered during summer. I was in KY at the time. Not a good place for a cold weather dog.

The last image was in Indianapolis IN near where my father lived at the time on 56th street. A peat bog pond.

I had the husky around nine years. For most of those years he never tried to get out of the fenced in yard. A different friend brough his dog on day and the two dogs played well together. No dominance deals. The friends dog did, however jump the fence. My dog apparently had not thought of that. After that it was hard to keep him in the yard. I tried different things. I finally ran a cable from the house to a distant tree. Had a pulley on the cable with a long lead I could attach to the dog's collar. He managed to get the lead off one evening and was found killed on the road. I will not have another dog.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Is It Illegal to Warn Other Drivers About a Speed Trap? (msn.com)

Hello; Seems to be legal in TN.

There may be laws against "informing" other drivers on public roads, but they would be unconstitutional. Basic 1st amendment. I suppose some methods of informing might be illegal, e.g. firing warning shots. LoL

 

[K4fxd]

Electric motors are better than ICE.

Tell that to all the people who lost power in Tx a couple of winters ago.

* History lesson. The powers that be banned ICE powered pumps for the natural gas lines. They were replaced with electric motors. The windmills iced up and quit pumping out power, the electric pump motors didn't get enough juice to run. They switched coal plants to natural gas.....

You know the rest.

 

[K4fxd]

I hate pitbulls. They have been bread to fight for thousands of years. Their instinct is to fight when provoked or just when annoyed. Like if a kid grabs the dogs tail.

Everytime I hear of a kid being killed or maimed by a dog the owners and even sometimes neighbors will say , but it was such a sweet dog.

Go back to breeding and instincts, they are sweet till they are not.

Other breeds that bite tend to show that personality from birth. Pit bulls don't show that tendency till they kill someone. Another thing is they don't stop fighting till the thing they are fighting is dead.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Tell that to all the people who lost power in Tx a couple of winters ago.

* History lesson. The powers that be banned ICE powered pumps for the natural gas lines. They were replaced with electric motors. The windmills iced up and quit pumping out power, the electric pump motors didn't get enough juice to run. They switched coal plants to natural gas.....

You know the rest.

I didn't say EVs are better than ICE vehicles. Per your quote, I said that electric motors are better than ICE. The problem with EVs is where and how they get the electricity. If I could have just one vehicle, it damn well would be ICE.

 

[sk47]

Pit Bull Attacks - Victims of Dangerous Dog Attacks (dogsbite.org)

Hello; Here is a link to dogsbite.org. You can see photos of the victims (before attack) by these dogs. Lots of imbedded sub links to information about dog attack in general.

 

[sk47]

I didn't say EVs are better than ICE vehicles. Per your quote, I said that electric motors are better than ICE. The problem with EVs is where and how they get the electricity. If I could have just one vehicle, it damn well would be ICE.

Hello; I got your point about the massive batteries and the issues surrounding quickly forcing energy into them as being a crucial flaw of EV's rather than the electric motors.
I guess the diesel-electric setup of a train locomotive might be the sort of example that supports the point. The locomotive wheels are driven by electric motors so in a big stretch might be considered an EV. Of course, the champions will reject this as the fuel is diesel.
The diesel fuel powers a big ICE diesel engine which spins a generator to make electricity to drive the electric motors. Pretty sure the diesel engine never directly drives the train wheels.

What point am I making. It terms of stepping on the accelerator pedal it would not make much difference if the thing driving (spinning) the cars wheels was an ICE or an electric motor. (There is some difference to be sure such as instant torque but that is for another discussion.) The issues tend to focus around the batteries. Gasoline and diesel are perhaps the best fuels for vehicles. Good energy density. Liquid at ambient temperatures. Do not need to be compressed. Not particularly flammable in liquid state. (the vapors burn easy, not the liquid) Outside of these inherent characteristics we already have a working production and delivery system in place.

Put another way, if somehow the energy of gasoline/diesel could be directly sent to run an electric motor without the need for a big intermediate generator, such would make a great EV. Of course, the intermediate generator is necessary and adds a lot of inefficiency and weight to the notion. By the way the magic to run an electric motor directly on gasoline does not exist.

There are combustion fuels that exist which do run ICE vehicles and make less pollution than gasoline or diesel. The natural gasses and propane are examples. They have to be compressed to high pressures to be practical which has its drawbacks. There is already a widespread network of propane outlets. I looked into a propane conversion for my pickup back in 2004. That way I could have run my truck on gasoline or on propane. The stuff existed and was a bolt of sort of conversion.

But back to your main point. It is the big & heavy battery packs and not the electric motors which are the Achilles heel of BEV's. I do not know if the actuators controlling the electric motors when driving are better than the electric motor power steering systems. If we put aside the fact BEV systems are not all that "clean" there are still major drawbacks to the battery packs. Which, except for the champions, most of us know. Come to think about it, even the champions on here must know better as none appear to own a pure BEV.

 

[K4fxd]

didn't say EVs are better than ICE vehicles.

I was responding to a quote that electric motors are better than ICE. I pointed out a situation where ICE motors are better than electric. The ICE motors would have run even when the windmills stopped. Thus the gas powered power stations would have still had fuel and kept producing electricity.

The ICE motors on the pipelines would/did run on natural gas siphoned off the pipeline.

Anyway green energy mandates caused the TX blackouts.

Nikola Tesla (not musk) wanted to transmit electrical power like we do radio and TV. George Westinghouse destroyed Tesla's transmitting tower before it was turned on. He couldn't figure out a way to charge people for the received energy.

I do wonder if it would have worked. If it did then EV's would work

 

[Caballus]

Hello; The first two images look worse than the reality. A friend brought his heavier dog around for a visit. My husky was just too quick and both dogs being male had to establish some dominance. The other dog was not hurt as i called the husky(Benjamin) off right away. Only thing hurt was my friends pride in his dog. There was not a fight and I would not have allowed a fight.

The second image is the husky in one of his favorite places. He was kept inside the house most of the time. I had a place with a fenced in yard. During winter the dog would just as soon be outside as much as possible. He suffered during summer. I was in KY at the time. Not a good place for a cold weather dog.

The last image was in Indianapolis IN near where my father lived at the time on 56th street. A peat bog pond.

I had the husky around nine years. For most of those years he never tried to get out of the fenced in yard. A different friend brough his dog on day and the two dogs played well together. No dominance deals. The friends dog did, however jump the fence. My dog apparently had not thought of that. After that it was hard to keep him in the yard. I tried different things. I finally ran a cable from the house to a distant tree. Had a pulley on the cable with a long lead I could attach to the dog's collar. He managed to get the lead off one evening and was found killed on the road. I will not have another dog.

That was a beautiful dog. Sorry that you lost him the way you did. It's sometimes hard to condition dogs that have a high prey drive or roam. Fortunately, the training techniques have improved a lot, and it's much easier than it used to be. For example, we've learned that dominance is not as much of a trait in dogs as we used to think. No one will ever know your dog as well as you did, but what seemed like aggression was probably normal play. Like kids, dogs' biggest education comes from playing with other dogs. They learn from the dogs they play with and the dog owners--like kids from parents and playmates. Prey drive (attacking small animals) can also be controlled through conditioning. Chaining and cabling dogs reinforces bad behavior, though it's understandable tradition. More often than not, when dogs like huskies and GSDs act out, it's because they don't get enough exercise. Our society has become fat and sedentary. Our dogs have not.

The links you provided are interesting, but they also show the bias. The first one, like the one I linked is kinda all over the place. The second admits that "A 2006 study from the Journal of Interpersonal Violence revealed that owners of vicious dogs were significantly more likely to have criminal convictions for aggressive crimes, drugs, alcohol, domestic violence, crimes involving children and firearms. These findings were confirmed in a 2009 report published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences..." but then dismisses it.

Specifically to pitbulls, there are two issues. One is the definition, which is also all over the place. One article properly identifies them from being part of the terrier strain of dog. More often, they are any dog with a short snout, which means they lump in American bulldogs, for example, which are from the mastiff strain. The idea that they were bred for fighting for thousands of years is misinformed. Worth studying the history of bullbaiting. Also worth looking up the background of dogsbite.org--very biased.

The Other End of the Leash: great book for anyone who is truly interested in dog behavior beyond the entrenched myths.

 

[K4fxd]

Very easy to source this out.

Pit bulls were originally bred for bull baiting and dog fighting, and because of this heritage, they often show a tendency to attack other animals with a remarkable ferocity that contributes to public stigma against the breed.

 

[K4fxd]

Why were American bull terriers bred?
Bull and terrier crosses were originally bred to function as fighting dogs for bull- and bear-baiting, and other popular blood sports during the Victorian era. The sport of bull baiting required a dog with attributes such as tenacity and courage, a wide frame with heavy bone, and a muscular, protruding jaw.

More easily found info

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