Tweeter recommendations

[krishelnino]

I'm currently running Focal 165 AS3 3-way component speakers with a Helix DSP. 3 and Audio Control LC 6.1200 amp. I do like the Focals, they have strong midrange and bass and also they're excellent for vocals, however I can't get to dial in the harshness of those tweeters no matter what. Are there any good tweeters which have more warm and soft sounding tone, or should I consider replacing the 3-way components again ?

I'm looking at Hertz, Morels, JL-Audio, etc. Any suggestions appreciated

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[StangTime]

I have Hertz MP25.3 Mille Pro's. Absolutely love them! They can be crossed over a lot lower than most tweeters. I have mine crossed over at 2Khz. This lifts the front stage up onto the dash. They are not harsh at all and are extremely detailed and accurate. They fit nicely after opening up the hole in the A-pillar. Make the hole a little tight and they can press fit. I cut the connector off the back of the OEM tweeters and epoxied it to the back of the MP25.3 for an easy install.

 

[krishelnino]

I have Hertz MP25.3 Mille Pro's. Absolutely love them! They can be crossed over a lot lower than most tweeters. I have mine crossed over at 2Khz. This lifts the front stage up onto the dash. They are not harsh at all and are extremely detailed and accurate. They fit nicely after opening up the hole in the A-pillar. Make the hole a little tight and they can press fit. I cut the connector off the back of the OEM tweeters and epoxied it to the back of the MP25.3 for an easy install.

Thank you, I'll look into those. What is the rest of your setup if I may ask?

 

[StangTime]

Front 2-way speakers: Hertz MPK165P.3
(tweeters are available separately as this part# MP25.3)
DSP: Hertz H8 with remote control
5-channel amp: Hertz HCP5D
Subwoofer: JL HO110RG-W3v3

My system is active. 4 channels for the front and 1 channel for the sub.

The Hertz stuff is basically Audison gear. Not sure if it is on the same level but I love the Hertz product line. Very well built and high quality. Plus, I was able to buy it all on sale.
It took a long time to dial it in with the Hertz H8 DSP but it sounds great now. I am almost 100% happy with it but I need to do some more RTA measurements with the sub woofer. I think I can do a better job of blending the sub with the mid-bass. I feel like there is a dip in the mid-bass that needs correcting with a crossover adjustment.

If I was to do anything over I would replace the Hertz H8 DSP with a JL TwK-88. The H8 works great but it wasn't the most flexible when it came to tuning.

I am a big Audio Control fan. I looked at the D-6.1200 but it was beyond my budget for the DSP/AMP portion.

 

[MegaG]

Some general opinions,

In a 3 way set-up, the mid range is the most important speaker and should do the brunt of the work, make sure you are not crossing you tweeter too low. Also, given the DSP, double check not just your frequency curve but the gain/output of the tweeter. If the mid range is doing what it should be doing you may be able to reduce the tweeter gain some to help with that harness.

Don't be afraid to try the factory tweeter to compare to your current tweeter. If your midrange is crossed over higher the tweeter needs and uses very little power to deliver the remaining frequencies (X-ver in 4000 to 5000 Hz range for midrange, full disclosure I did not look up your mid's specs but there are good midrange speakers that play to 5000 easy which lightens the load on the tweeter quite a bit).

In a 2 way, the tweeter quality matters more as it needs to cross over and perform better at a lower frequency. Crossing over a tweeter in a 2 way at 2000 Hz makes a lot of sense for a 2 way, not for a 3 way.

Listen to some test tracks that goes through a bunch of frequency. I have found there are very specific frequencies that sound harsh to my ears at the same volume then the frequency on either side. If you know this about yourself you can experiment by cutting that specific frequency versus fitting a standard curve. Curves are a great starting point but not everyone is wired the same. Most need to tweak from the curve to get what sounds right them, if you are not competing, you don't need to care how it sounds to other people, just how it sounds to your self. With your DSP you can save a profile fitting a house curve and one fitting your curve and compare them. Assuming your tweeter is already a soft dome tweeter you may get better results focusing on your tune. Its worth trying before spending $ on new tweets.

Now if you do decide to invest in new tweeters the Morels have a reputation of having a warmer more neutral sound but I am sure there are other options. I know the Mille's are well regarded and I almost went with these but to be honest, I don't remember how people describe their tweeters which tough to by anyways as its so subjective. Its one of the reasons I suggest listening to specific frequency and once you've done that sometimes listening to samples of specific instruments is helpful as well such as the high hat, flute, etc

Whenever I get new speakers whether for home or car I like to listen to some test CD's that have not just frequency sweeps but also tracks of individual instruments.

Here's something just to understand what ranges different instruments cover pasted from https://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html. Not trying to present this as the be all end all just something to think about.

"Audible frequency range of musical instruments and the human voice.

These for obvious reasons are acoustic instruments and unamplified. The frequency refers to fundamental tones only. To give an extreme example a massive church bell such as 'Big Ben' will produce low frequencies you can feel in your gut and yet the harmonics will go way beyond the range of human hearing."

Instrument	Frequency range Hz
Piano (concert)	27.50 - 4,186.00
Bass Tuba	43.65 - 349.23
Double Bass	41.20 - 246.94
Cello	65.41 - 987.77
Viola	130.81 -1,174.00
Violin	196.00 - 3,136.00
Clarinet	164.81 - 1,567.00
Flute	261.63 - 3,349.30
French horn	110.00 - 880.00
Trombone	82.41 - 493.88
Trumpet	164.81 - 987.77
Guitar	82.41 - 880.00

Human voice
These are the ranges demanded in classical opera, hence the decimal point accuracy...

Type of voice	Frequency range Hz
Bass	87.31 - 349.23
Baritone	98.00 - 392.00
Tenor	130 - 493.88
Contralto	130.81 - 698.46
Soprano	246.94 - 1,174.70

 

[Cathul]

I'm currently running Focal 165 AS3 3-way component speakers with a Helix DSP. 3 and Audio Control LC 6.1200 amp. I do like the Focals, they have strong midrange and bass and also they're excellent for vocals, however I can't get to dial in the harshness of those tweeters no matter what. Are there any good tweeters which have more warm and soft sounding tone, or should I consider replacing the 3-way components again ?

I'm looking at Hertz, Morels, JL-Audio, etc. Any suggestions appreciated

Try to lower the region between 2000Hz and 4000Hz by about 3-4db in the DSP on both sides together. Maybe link all drivers and sides together and then do the drop in this area to keep phase between drivers intact.
A lot of times this solves problems with systems sounding too harsh. If not, you at least paid nothing while trying except for a few minutes of DSP work and listening, if it works it saved you a good amount of money.
I say this because the Helix DSP should be more than capable to tame all speakers to your liking.

One band of parametric EQ at 3kHz with a Q-factor of 2.5 and negative gain of 3db should work.

Try it, you got nothing to lose.

 

[Matthewstorm]

I just ordered the Hertz C26 OE from Amazon. It was the last one. Everywhere else was sold out.

 

[MegaG]

Op,

Are you running your 3 way speakers active?

What is the crossover point between your midrange and tweeter?

My initial assumption was that you were running active and running the sub from the factory sub amp. If you are running active, most DSPs let you turn off individuals drivers.

Listen to a song that you know is harsh and go back and forth turning on and off & alternating between the tweeter pair and midrange pair to make sure you know what speaker pair is causing the harshness.

Cathul's recommendation is a good one but on an active 3 way system its possible for the range he is talking about is all in the midrange so it would be good for you to be sure you know which speaker is causing the harshness since you came in talking about a harsh tweeter.

If for some reason you are are running your sub off channels 5/6 bridged and you are using your passive crossovers, make sure you check the passive crossover for a slide or dip switch for the tweeter. Better passive crossovers come withe the option to boost or cut the tweeter gain by 2 or 3 dBs depending on MFG.

Ok, just as I was finishing this when I decided to go to Crutchfield and check out your speakers.

Tweeters are Aluminum/Magnisium so these would by design sound brighter then a soft silk dome tweeter.

The passive crossovers have -3, 0, +3 settings as I suspected and they crossover the tweeter at 3500 HZ

Unfortunately their manual does not offer recommended crossover ranges for active set-ups

The mid range's off axis frequency response starts to drop right after 3500 Hz which is why they likely cross it over @3500 but it isn't terrible, maybe 2-3 dB down at 4000 Hz. If you are running active and your current crossover is less then 4,000 it may be worth moving the crossover up and then figure out which speaker is causing the harshness, then if it is the midrange Cathul suggestion may help. https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...ment/access_165as3_medium-technical_sheet.pdf

Looking at their tweeter's FR, I can see why the passive crossover is set-up for 3500 Hz.

 

[Cathul]

My suggestion work with both 2-way and 3-way configurations. Focal doesn't state the fs of the tweeter, which is unfortunate, but when looking at the techsheet it seems to be near 2k which would lead to a crossover at 4-5kHz to be on the safe side.
Using the Helix DSP.3 might hint at a full active system, therefor you're right. Knowing if he uses the passive or an active configuration might help, especially if he crosses the tweeter too far below 4kHz, but even if he did, crossing that tweeter at 2.5kHz or something similar like i do with my soft dome tweeter would be a recipe for disaster.

If the system is correctly set up he can always try to lower the suggested range when all drivers are linked together in the DSP or if he's using the passive crossovers. Taking away power will never do harm, is done quick and worth a try.

Of course, having all the REW measurements (if he has them) would be even better to analyze the system.

 

[krishelnino]

Op,

Are you running your 3 way speakers active?

What is the crossover point between your midrange and tweeter?

My initial assumption was that you were running active and running the sub from the factory sub amp. If you are running active, most DSPs let you turn off individuals drivers.

Listen to a song that you know is harsh and go back and forth turning on and off & alternating between the tweeter pair and midrange pair to make sure you know what speaker pair is causing the harshness.

Cathul's recommendation is a good one but on an active 3 way system its possible for the range he is talking about is all in the midrange so it would be good for you to be sure you know which speaker is causing the harshness since you came in talking about a harsh tweeter.

If for some reason you are are running your sub off channels 5/6 bridged and you are using your passive crossovers, make sure you check the passive crossover for a slide or dip switch for the tweeter. Better passive crossovers come withe the option to boost or cut the tweeter gain by 2 or 3 dBs depending on MFG.

Ok, just as I was finishing this when I decided to go to Crutchfield and check out your speakers.

Tweeters are Aluminum/Magnisium so these would by design sound brighter then a soft silk dome tweeter.

The passive crossovers have -3, 0, +3 settings as I suspected and they crossover the tweeter at 3500 HZ

Unfortunately their manual does not offer recommended crossover ranges for active set-ups

The mid range's off axis frequency response starts to drop right after 3500 Hz which is why they likely cross it over @3500 but it isn't terrible, maybe 2-3 dB down at 4000 Hz. If you are running active and your current crossover is less then 4,000 it may be worth moving the crossover up and then figure out which speaker is causing the harshness, then if it is the midrange Cathul suggestion may help. https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...ment/access_165as3_medium-technical_sheet.pdf

Looking at their tweeter's FR, I can see why the passive crossover is set-up for 3500 Hz.

Thanks for the detailed responses @MegaG @Cathul

My car is at the dealership since a week for service and I'll be getting it back today so will check for the things that you suggested.

I was running them passive previously but later ditched the rear speakers and switched to fully active. I have a 6 channel amp Audio Control LC6.1200 powering these speakers. The sub is a JL Audio 8inch powered by another mono amp.

I'm no audiophile expert and don't have much experience with tuning. A shop installed my setup and they've tuned it for a flat EQ response. I tried playing with the Helix software using their tune as a baseline. I lowered the tweeters gain from 0 to -12db which makes them much more bearable but then I lose some of the detail and clarity.

I'm going to check the crossover points and try your suggestions. I probably have to spend some time understanding the tuning aspect The Helix is a very good DSP though, highly recommend it.

 

[Matthewstorm]

@krishelnino which Mono amp are you using to power the JL Audio sub. I bought the 10 inch but haven't installed it yet. I have the B&O system.

 

[krishelnino]

@krishelnino which Mono amp are you using to power the JL Audio sub. I bought the 10 inch but haven't installed it yet. I have the B&O system.

The sub I'm using is JL Audio 8W3V34 - 250W @4 Ohm. The amplifier is AD Designs ADMP 200.2 250X1 @4 Ohm, or (100X2 @4 Ohm). The shop that did the installation was a dealer for AD Designs, honestly I haven't heard of that company and didn't care for the brand since they gave me a good price on it.

 

[Matthewstorm]

The sub I'm using is JL Audio 8W3V34 - 250W @4 Ohm. The amplifier is AD Designs ADMP 200.2 250X1 @4 Ohm, or (100X2 @4 Ohm). The shop that did the installation was a dealer for AD Designs, honestly I haven't heard of that company and didn't care for the brand since they gave me a good price on it.

So, are you happy with the amp?

 

[krishelnino]

So, are you happy with the amp?

Yeah no issues with it. The sub works great !

 

[Matthewstorm]

Yeah no issues with it. The sub works great !

You wouldn't happen to have a link to the amp? I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

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