Tuning questions or opinions

[COBB Tuning]

Tuneable table used for model calculations. Just sayin'

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[Ron@cp-e]

Upgraded tstat is not a compensation increased coolant temps. It's a bandaid for heatsoak onset. This is something I've never understood with Livernois they have great reputations but always recommend tstat upgrades. Once your engine gone beyond the tstat opening threshold it does nothing for heat reduction. This is the thermal efficiency of the cooling system getting overwelmend. Larger radiator is needed here.

my cylinder head temps are way down during cruise and WOT with the LMS evenflow t-stat
and that's with the Full Race FMIC installed which does block some radiator surface area compared to stock

while I do agree a larger and more efficient radiator will help our heat reduction efforts, the LMS lower temp thermo has proven it's worth IMO

:cheers:

 

[MAPerformance]

Tuneable table used for model calculations. Just sayin'

I posted this earlier, but it was deleted. Figures lol.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Upgraded tstat is not a compensation increased coolant temps. It's a bandaid for heatsoak onset. This is something I've never understood with Livernois they have great reputations but always recommend tstat upgrades. Once your engine gone beyond the tstat opening threshold it does nothing for heat reduction. This is the thermal efficiency of the cooling system getting *overwhelmed*. Larger radiator is needed here.

That is where the PP car comes into play. But if the purchaser of the car did not opt for the additional cost of the radiator and additional parts at time of purchase why would that be an option post purchase?

And for the PP car it already has the larger radiator. So the performance thermostat would be a benefit, right?

We are not trying to take over the world a tstat at a time. There is clear and convincing evidence that tstats offer nominal benefits. People have been putting aftermarket tstats in cars since they started coming in cars.

 

[dragonacc]

my cylinder head temps are way down during cruise and WOT with the LMS evenflow t-stat
and that's with the Full Race FMIC installed which does block some radiator surface area compared to stock

while I do agree a larger and more efficient radiator will help our heat reduction efforts, the LMS lower temp thermo has proven it's worth IMO

:cheers:

I can appreciate your first hand experience and don't doubt it. However, an upgraded t-stat isn't magic. It's only going to be helpful in certain situations. Short period WOT runs it may help. Day to day driving is arguable, but I think Ford probably did enough testing that the stock one is just fine for this. HPDE, runway races and stuff a lower t-stat isn't going to help. You need more cooling capacity as you mentioned.

I think people just need to understand the situations that they'll help so they know if it will benefit them or not. My .02

 

[dragonacc]

That is where the PP car comes into play. But if the purchaser of the car did not opt for the additional cost of the radiator and additional parts at time of purchase why would that be an option post purchase?

And for the PP car it already has the larger radiator. So the performance thermostat would be a benefit, right?

We are not trying to take over the world a tstat at a time. There is clear and convincing evidence that tstats offer nominal benefits. People have been putting aftermarket tstats in cars since they started coming in cars.

It's only going to be beneficial based on intended vehicle use. It's not very expensive though (and I don't see a way it could do any harm) so I wouldn't fault someone for buying one just because.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I can appreciate your first hand experience and don't doubt it. However, an upgraded t-stat isn't magic. It's only going to be helpful in certain situations. Short period WOT runs it may help. Day to day driving is arguable, but I think Ford probably did enough testing that the stock one is just fine for this. HPDE, runway races and stuff a lower t-stat isn't going to help. You need more cooling capacity as you mentioned.

I think people just need to understand the situations that they'll help so they know if it will benefit them or not. My .02

Nobody is suggesting that a 160° tstat is going to work magic, but it is not for a road race application either. Is it part of the solution for a road racer? Yes. But your road racer is going to also gut the car for weight reduction, get the largest FMIC they can and mate that to the largest and coolest rad and tstat combo.

As for Ford testing, they actually do all of their power testing at 140° coolant temp. However, your street car cannot operate at that temp especially in any environment that requires heat in the winter. So we are getting you as close to those temps without sacrificing any of your car's amenities.

 

[dragonacc]

Nobody is suggesting that a 160° tstat is going to work magic, but it is not for a road race application either. Is it part of the solution for a road racer? Yes. But your road racer is going to also gut the car for weight reduction, get the largest FMIC they can and mate that to the largest and coolest rad and tstat combo.

As for Ford testing, they actually do all of their power testing at 140° coolant temp. However, your street car cannot operate at that temp especially in any environment that requires heat in the winter. So we are getting you as close to those temps without sacrificing any of your car's amenities.

I doubt it would really help a road racer at all. The car is going to reach the limit of whatever cooling system is in place regardless of the t-stat opening sooner or later. But as I said, if it compliments the intended use of the vehicle go for it.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

"But your road racer is going to also gut the car for weight reduction, get the largest FMIC they can and mate that to the largest and coolest rad and tstat combo."

 

[dragonacc]

"But your road racer is going to also gut the car for weight reduction, get the largest FMIC they can and mate that to the largest and coolest rad and tstat combo."

You said a larger t-stat is part of the solution, I disagree. You also said a long time ago that you'd have data for your t-stat at some point, I'm sure it would help sell your product if you produced some. If you have and I haven't seen it I apologize. Either way: no hard feelings.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I said biggest rad and coolest tstat, but that is neither here nor there.

What is your basis for disagreeing? Disagreeing is totally fine, but you haven't provided any evidence as to why it is not needed. We build race cars weekly, they all run huge rads and super low tstats.

This week alone we delivered a C5 based full blown road race car and a coyote based road race car for Ford Racing. Both of them run the same crazy high comp ratio, huge NA power, large rad, cold tstat and open intake setup.

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine-buildup/livernois-motorsports-builds-600-rwhp-na-coyote-for-road-racing/

 

[dragonacc]

I said biggest rad and coolest tstat, but that is neither here nor there.

What is your basis for disagreeing? Disagreeing is totally fine, but you haven't provided any evidence as to why it is not needed. We build race cars weekly, they all run huge rads and super low tstats.

This week alone we delivered a C5 based full blown road race car and a coyote based road race car for Ford Racing. Both of them run the same crazy high comp ratio, huge NA power, large rad, cold tstat and open intake setup.

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...ts-builds-600-rwhp-na-coyote-for-road-racing/

I disagree because in my original statement I wasn't talking about fully built race cars. If I take my car to HPDE events I don't want a super cold t-stat because now my heat won't work in the winter. But a super big IC and efficient radiator (within reason) won't hurt anything.

You switched from street car to race car to justify a part for a street car.

I don't doubt you know what you are talking about, I just don't think a lower t-stat is beneficial unless you are using your car for a specific purpose.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

That is exactly why we go down to 160°. We are in Michigan, I promise that our winters are 800 times worse, we have clients that run our tstats in rural Canada. All still have fully functioning heat.

You have to remember we are not noobs to the EcoBoost thing. NOBODY knows more about them than we do.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a25497/this-is-what-a-550-hp-ford-taurus-sho-looks-like/

He actually lives in TN as well, and runs out tstat without issue.

A lower tstat is a cheap saftey net and inexpensive insurance to safer tuned driving.

 

[dragonacc]

That is exactly why we go down to 160°. We are in Michigan, I promise that our winters are 800 times worse, we have clients that run our tstats in rural Canada. All still have fully functioning heat.

You have to remember we are not noobs to the EcoBoost thing. NOBODY knows more about them than we do.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...-is-what-a-550-hp-ford-taurus-sho-looks-like/

He actually lives in TN as well, and runs out tstat without issue.

A lower tstat is a cheap saftey net and inexpensive insurance to safer tuned driving.

That doesn't negate the fact that the car will reach the limit of the cooling system regardless of when the t-stat opens on an open track. I fail to see the benefit and you haven't ever posted any data to show the benefit.

You want to sell your product, I understand. If it is beneficial for a person's desired use I'm all for them buying it. Can you give us some actual numbers, graphs, or something to show in what situations it will show an improvement? I guess if you can't that's cool, we'll just agree to disagree. If you can then I'll admit that I was wrong.

 

[Ron@cp-e]

I can appreciate your first hand experience and don't doubt it. However, an upgraded t-stat isn't magic AGREE it's not magic, it actually works. It's only going to be helpful in certain situations YES! Like drag racing and occasional highway pulls = perfect for me & my application. Short period WOT runs it may help. Day to day driving is arguable, but I think Ford probably did enough testing that the stock one is just fine for this agree the OEM t-stat is fine for stock EB stangs. HPDE, runway races and stuff a lower t-stat isn't going to help. You need more cooling capacity as you mentioned. Road racing isn't my thing, never was... but if that's your interest, I can certainly appreciate that

I think people just need to understand the situations that they'll help so they know if it will benefit them or not. My .02

thanks^

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