Tuning Decisions

[Herr_Poopschitz]

^This.

I understand the first sentence, it's the second that I had problems w/...

"Being that it only claims 359tq on a dynojet which reads lower, I'm going to bet they make less real world power."

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[dirty-max]

I have only bought the accessport from cobb. Never been very impressed with the other stuff. But i have to admit, It's hardware and software were far better and more user friendly than anything else I've seen. I understand that there is more experienced ecoboost tuners out there. I would of liked to send my datalogs to one to tune and customize for me. But I have seen what happens to the datalog hiding tuners. I would never buy a product that doesn't let me see what it's done to my new car, over one that does. Calculations or not it's still close and could be enough to save you from damaging something.

I just don't know who the more experienced ecoboost tuners would be hence why I'm on this thread and why I'm trying to figure out which tune to buy I like both livernois and cobb so far so it's making it a hard choice but stock with only a couple mods I wonder if I should lean towards livernois since they have made on paper more power since I still can't see what cobb has done because they haven't ran it at the track

 

[RamJam]

Less real world power at a given RPM. Not peak. Area under the curve is all that matters, contrary to poopschitz' claim of ET. Looking at an ET is what you do when you can't measure specific output.

 

[cosmo]

^This.

I understand the first sentence, it's the second that I had problems w/...

"Being that it only claims 359tq on a dynojet which reads lower, I'm going to bet they make less real world power."

Yeah, idk. Dynojet usually reads higher than mustang dynos I thought.

 

[foghat]

Less real world power at a given RPM. Not peak. Area under the curve is all that matters, contrary to poopschitz' claim of ET. Looking at an ET is what you do when you can't measure specific output.

ET maybe not as much, but trap speed is going to give you a very good idea of actual power. Trap speed is the proof - doesn't matter if you have a high or low reading dyno, doesn't matter if you don't have a great launch at the track.

 

[foghat]

Yeah, idk. Dynojet usually reads higher than mustang dynos I thought.

Think he just typeod 'lower', as his next comment indicates he was thinking higher.

 

[EcoSnake]

I just don't know who the more experienced ecoboost tuners would be hence why I'm on this thread and why I'm trying to figure out which tune to buy I like both livernois and cobb so far so it's making it a hard choice but stock with only a couple mods I wonder if I should lean towards livernois since they have made on paper more power since I still can't see what cobb has done because they haven't ran it at the track

Track times will be different on your track anyway so I don't see why that matters. I am going to get a base run done on the dyno to see my stock #s. Then load the tune and dyno again to see the gains. I will then datalog and load the new protune. Dyno to see the difference. As many times as it takes.

No 2 cars will be identical, even with the same universal tune. I feel better having proof and a tune just for my car.
I was leaning towards livernois for protuning, but they said that's not something they do. So I won't be able to compare theirs to cobbs etune.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Less real world power at a given RPM. Not peak. Area under the curve is all that matters, contrary to poopschitz' claim of ET. Looking at an ET is what you do when you can't measure specific output.

Ah, gotcha. I was using the generic 'ET'. In a follow up post I comment on trap speed and hp. Unless something's wrong, you get one, you get the other. As has been stated, comparing one dyno to another proves difficult.

As far as real world power, especially in an automatic, when you floor it from a roll, rpm jumps and stays closer to peak than off idle. It's about area under the curve in the full throttle range, say from 4k to 6k rpm, for example.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Track times will be different on your track anyway so I don't see why that matters. I am going to get a base run done on the dyno to see my stock #s. Then load the tune and dyno again to see the gains. I will then datalog and load the new protune. Dyno to see the difference. As many times as it takes.

No 2 cars will be identical, even with the same universal tune. I feel better having proof and a tune just for my car.
I was leaning towards livernois for protuning, but they said that's not something they do. So I won't be able to compare theirs to cobbs etune.

Actually, you can compare them, you just would have to have our tuner as well.

We just know that when we do these calibrations, we map out everything there is to map out, and even add logic into the ECM to change much of the functionality to better fit our established thought process on how these should perform, and drive.

Because of this, we don't use anyone else's software as there are far too many gaps, and flaws that we have dealt with in the past that inhibited the quality possible. And as touched on further up, if the logging is being converted, that means the tuning software is being converted as well, so you are putting in the wrong values and letting software convert when you input for changes, rather than understanding, and retaining the exact information you want to be in there

 

[mbreinin]

MPH, not ET, is an indicator of HP. ET lets you know the chassis works and you using the power efficiently.

 

[SVTFreak]

MPH, not ET, is an indicator of HP. ET lets you know the chassis works and you using the power efficiently.

This this absolute this.

 

[SVTFreak]

I scanned through and see lots of misinformation. I didn't read all posts so this may have been said. Some of it has been but not all together.

Horsepower can't be measured. It can only be calculated. The formula is

HP=(TQ * RPM) / 5252.

From this we see that torque and horsepower are always equal at 5252 rpm. We also see that even if torque falls off, hp can rise. We also see that the higher the tq peak the higher rpm the hp peak.

The two numbers are absolutely related. Always and forever. A low torque peak doesn't mean a low hp peak either. Low torque in a motor that spins up to 8000 rpm can still make lots of hp. Take the boss 302 for instance. Torque was low compared to gt. Yet it made more power. How? By taking advantage of the x rpm and revving the motor on out.

 

[mbreinin]

Torque = acceleration, while HP will produce MPH. For drag racing, and all around stop light to stop light action....those that are getting huge low end torque from these EB mills are going to be very quick, especially with an auto, proper converter and a tire that can put it down. My interest is in the tuners that can make big torque torque numbers safely. I am not too sure that the huge torque spike we are seeing on these cars is a result of effective tuning, and I have it from a very knowledgeable and trusted source that this is an issue of a failure to adequately control the throttle and WG. Time will tell, but I would like to see that torque number peak a little higher. I see bent rods in the future if that does not occur.

Mike

 

[SVTFreak]

Torque = acceleration, while HP will produce MPH.

While that explanation makes it easy to understand the general rules, it's not correct. Refer again to the formula. Torque and hp are directly related mathematically. One affects the other. Therefore acceleration and mph are related. You can't have one without the other. Aka you can't have mph without acceleration. You can't have hp without torque.

It's where these values happen at that matters.

That's the whole principle behind higher stall speed converters and all. Make more power at a higher rpm (by making more torque at a higher rpm) and keep the motor up there. Move the torque peak up the rpm and you don't even need more torque and horsepower will be greater.

Anyone can make more torque down low on a turbo engine. Close the waste gate off idle and it'll be as high as possible. It's who can control it and keep it in safe operating parameters is the key.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Anyone can make more torque down low on a turbo engine. Close the waste gate off idle and it'll be as high as possible. It's who can control it and keep it in safe operating parameters is the key.

Actually, on an EB it's not nearly so simple. But we see peoples cars all the time that are tuned that way, and then the computer tries to fight it and they wonder why they are slower than a car with less boost.

This is what separates us from so many others, actually knowing how to do anything in the computer on an EB, and understanding how, when, and why to do certain things while others just treat it like old school cars and throw boost, fuel, and timing at it and wonder why they don't perform correctly.

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