Tracking the EcoBoost

[shogun32]

That's not how to get around a track quickly.

I get that but if you're playing with substandard equipment (unvented rotors), who cares about 0.5 sec or even a full?
are we talking racing or HPDE? If latter, finesse and smoothness matter far more than lap times. Lap times will come instead of trying to force the issue with a banzai deceleration. Brake less, carry more corner speed or upgrade skills so get on the power earlier. That's my philosophy.

If pads are crumbling that suggests to me temp spikes are out of control.

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[SVO MkII]

That's not how to get around a track quickly. I'e., you want to be at full throttle as much as possible, and on the brakes as little as possible. You want to be as hard on the brakes as possible for a short amount of time as possible.

I get that but if you're playing with substandard equipment, who cares about 0.5 sec or even a full?
are we talking racing or HPDE? If latter, finesse and smoothness matter far more than lap times. Lap times will come insead of trying to force the issue with a banzai deceleration. Brake less, carry more corner speed or upgrade skills so get on the power earlier.

100 true. This same logic applies to just about any hobby/activity, e.g., golf, fishing, skeet shooting, etc. If you enjoy it, you start getting sucked in, and wanting to raise your game, so to speak. You can absolutely roll a bone stock car (any car) off the showroom floor, take it to a track and drive it within it's limits. The EB Mustang is no different. You'll be shifting at 5K (because the IC is heatsoaked and the engine is not making any power above that), lift off the throttle well in advance of the braking zone, gently apply the brakes, don't carry too much speed in the corners at risk or overheating the tires, and repeat. This can be very fun for some people. But others will want to go faster. To each his own.

 

[TeeLew]

lift off the throttle well in advance of the braking zone, gently apply the brakes, don't carry too much speed in the corners at risk or overheating the tires, and repeat. This can be very fun for some people. But others will want to go faster. To each his own.

When saving fuel (or brakes) while racing, the early lift + coast prior to the brake zone is correct. Once braking, though, you need to brake every bit as hard as normal. Part of this is because you're approaching the corner at a lower speed (you can take your application point a little later), but you want to brake hard to induce pitch in the car and weight the front so the thing handles correctly. Braking lightly and sailing it in will usually lead to over-charging the corner, U/S because of not enough weight on the nose and a healthy delay before you can apply throttle on exit.

It's a tricky skill to develop, and, like you say, only fun for some.

 

[SVO MkII]

When saving fuel (or brakes) while racing, the early lift + coast prior to the brake zone is correct. Once braking, though, you need to brake every bit as hard as normal. Part of this is because you're approaching the corner at a lower speed (you can take your application point a little later), but you want to brake hard to induce pitch in the car and weight the front so the thing handles correctly. Braking lightly and sailing it in will usually lead to over-charging the corner, U/S because of not enough weight on the nose and a healthy delay before you can apply throttle on exit.

It's a tricky skill to develop, and, like you say, only fun for some.

Please go back and read the comments prior to this. I'm describing what to do if you DON'T want to go quickly around a track, i.e., not at all what you think.

 

[TeeLew]

Please go back and read the comments prior to this. I'm describing what to do if you DON'T want to go quickly around a track, i.e., not at all what you think.

I guess I'm a little lost & rereading doesn't seem to help me. I thought you were trying to save brakes and cool the engine? What I described will do both. I'm a little confused why you would drive around a track if you didn't want to go (at least moderately) fast?

 

[SVO MkII]

I guess I'm a little lost & rereading doesn't seem to help me. I thought you were trying to save brakes and cool the engine? What I described will do both. I'm a little confused why you would drive around a track if you didn't want to go (at least moderately) fast?

Yep, that has been my philosophy for the last 23 years, but I was responding to post #76.

 

[TeeLew]

I wrote something to explain, but, never mind, ignore what I wrote. It's all good. I was interpreting things differently.

 

[PaddyPrix]

where space permits (and not racing) why not just brake earlier for longer? As long as your entry speed is the same for the corner you're not injecting near the same BTU/sec into the pads nor likely seeing the same peak temps.

Not trying to be a jerk, but that's dangerous advice for a track novice, perhaps it came out wrong. Street braking of braking slow and building up the pressure and intensity as you are trying to smoothly come to a stop without rocking the car too heavily is a bad idea on the track, as and especially without the 6-piston performance pack Brembos. You're usually fighting the heat because our cars are heavy, and so as the heat increases, so does the chance that your brake fluid is boiling, or your brake pad surface is starting to weaken and almost gum up, and so you have to apply even more brake pedal to get the same stopping power. However, if the pad isn't there and the fluid isn't there, well, uhm let's just not go there.

When tracking, taking into account that your brakes might not be there the whole time, you actually want to stop decently aggressive and apply it very quickly, but, not quickly enough to throw your entire car's balance, and certainly not enough to trip your ABS. If you have a nice spot around town that's not busy and you can go very quickly without being arrested, choose some visual marker, and get into the brakes as hard as you can, and try to stop as quickly as you can. You'll very likely feel the ABS kicking in and bumping your brake pedal. Give yourself and the brakes a few minutes to cool down, and do a return pass, and then brake just as hard, but let up a touch so that you still stop almost quickly, but don't feel the ABS thump. That's what they call threshold braking. So now that you know how hard you can stop the car under control, then the only other thing to learn is how to be close to your braking threshold, but still keeping good balance of the car, so that you're not just scraping the front bumper and throwing the car balance off. If you can apply that method where you get great braking, but can keep the car in good control, supposing you may not have brakes that hold for very long because of either fluid and/or pads, this braking method is the best way to quickly drop speed, so if, as shitty as it is, if they give, you've shed the most speed, and your car still has weight on the front tires so you can steer somewhat decently, and also gives the brakes the longest time to cool.

V6 and EB's are vicious autocrossers where that weight advantage does them pretty good actually. They do okay on the track too, depending on which ones. The long straightaways let the GT's stretch their legs out and make some time back up, but some just aren't long enough.

 

[shogun32]

Street braking of braking slow and building up the pressure and intensity as you are trying to smoothly come to a stop without rocking the car too heavily is a bad idea on the track

I was referring to using the 300ft marker instead of the 150ft marker. And if you've established your corner entry speed by the 100ft marker, just let off the brake and go into the corner. You get a lot more time to sense your brakes aren't working instead of waiting till the last possible moment only to discover you're on a one-way trajectory for the kitty litter and tire wall. Even better just don't come flying down the straight-away and the need for brakes is lessened.

You (or somebody else) referenced their brake pads had crumbled. that's a clear sign the pad had gotten far, far too hot.
It may be quite exciting to pitch and dive the car into every corner by maximizing brake and throttle, but it's not necessary. Try driving the circuit in just 3rd or 4th gear and never touch the brakes.

 

[TeeLew]

I was referring to using the 300ft marker instead of the 150ft marker. And if you've established your corner entry speed by the 100ft marker, just let off the brake and go into the corner. You get a lot more time to sense your brakes aren't working instead of waiting till the last possible moment only to discover you're on a one-way trajectory for the kitty litter and tire wall. Even better just don't come flying down the straight-away and the need for brakes is lessened.

You (or somebody else) referenced their brake pads had crumbled. that's a clear sign the pad had gotten far, far too hot.
It may be quite exciting to pitch and dive the car into every corner by maximizing brake and throttle, but it's not necessary. Try driving the circuit in just 3rd or 4th gear and never touch the brakes.

Don't do that with other people on the track because it would be unpredictable and completely annoying. That's the track equivalent of being the guy in the far left lane with his blinker on.

 

[shogun32]

Don't do that with other people on the track because it would be unpredictable and completely annoying. That's the track equivalent of being the guy in the far left lane with his blinker on.

so, wave any chasers by on the straights, they got a head of steam up so it'll be an easy pass. it's driver EDUCATION, not racing for lap times. No, the "no brakes" drill wouldn't be done without prior coordination.

 

[TeeLew]

so, wave any chasers buy on the straights, they got a head of steam up so it'll be an easy pass. it's driver EDUCATION, not racing for lap times. No, the "no brakes" drill wouldn't be done without prior coordination.

I suspect this would only teach bad habits.

 

[PaddyPrix]

I was referring to using the 300ft marker instead of the 150ft marker. And if you've established your corner entry speed by the 100ft marker, just let off the brake and go into the corner. You get a lot more time to sense your brakes aren't working instead of waiting till the last possible moment only to discover you're on a one-way trajectory for the kitty litter and tire wall. Even better just don't come flying down the straight-away and the need for brakes is lessened.

You (or somebody else) referenced their brake pads had crumbled. that's a clear sign the pad had gotten far, far too hot.
It may be quite exciting to pitch and dive the car into every corner by maximizing brake and throttle, but it's not necessary. Try driving the circuit in just 3rd or 4th gear and never touch the brakes.

Apologies if you took it as a snub, I was just trying to share a pearl of wisdom. You're correct with that car balance is another one of the secrets, but going into a turn without any weight over the front tires is something that others may disagree with. Perhaps your courses are smaller with plenty of type-3 turns and tighter confines that don't have great speed differentials, whereas out here, laps generally have 2-3 long straightaways and we're often having to shed over 75mph 3-4 times or every 20-30 seconds. Beginner groups out here typically require instructors, and if you're doing laps in 3rd and 4th without braking, that's probably the only place you could do so. If you're capable of doing Summit Point or VIR like that, well, more power to you.

 

[shogun32]

whereas out here, laps generally have 2-3 long straightaways and we're often having to shed over 75mph 3-4 times or every 20-30 seconds.

so shed 30mph instead. Is there some requirement that prohibits trundling down a straightaway at a modest clip (say 80mph instead of 120) assuming you're not interfering with cars that want to overtake? Many drivers overbrake (too slow corner entry) anyway. Gas hard out of the corner and then just 'coast'. The problem statement is a very heavy car with sub-standard brakes and how to maximize the session instead of having unsafe failures after a mere handful of laps.

 

[PaddyPrix]

so shed 30mph instead. Is there some requirement that prohibits trundling down a straightaway at a modest clip (say 80mph instead of 120) assuming you're not interfering with cars that want to overtake? Many drivers overbrake (too slow corner entry) anyway. Gas hard out of the corner and then just 'coast'. The problem statement is a very heavy car with sub-standard brakes and how to maximize the session instead of having unsafe failures after a mere handful of laps.

I'm not an organizer, so I don't know if there's any requirement preventing you from doing so, and we likely have different tracks in mind when we're referring to things. If you want to do 80 down a straightaway that s2k/BRZ/Miatas are doing 120 down, and 5.0/GT3/Vipers are doing 150-175 down, well that is your choice, and you have the freedom to do so. Depending on your organization, I'm sure most require driver meetings after some sessions, and driving that slowly might have your car/name brought up, and I don't know what they'd say, perhaps you'll let us know. It does seem that we agree on that the V6/EB/base-GT brakes were designed with economy in mind, for anything else other than tracking, they are more than adequate, at least in my humble opinion. We also seem to share the same problem statement. Our solutions differ though, whereas it seems your position is to lighten your driving approach which may avoid the problem, whereas mine is to somewhat eliminate it. Anyhow, apologies to the others reading and looking for information, it seems as if this is an unnecessary diversion and tangent from the original subject to begin with. Seeing as your GT+PP and SS+1LE have these brakes, I was sure you'd somewhat agree, that's all.

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