Suspension Recommendation ~$2,500

[Eritas]

Actually, it does since you're giving out advices as if you knew things and someone who doesn't know better may actually take them. Because if you did, you would've known that better tires make the most difference in regards to the wheel hop, then the cradle bushing lockout, followed by verticle links if the first two weren't enough. Did you honestly think that you can just throw on a set of vertical links and expect to see a noticeable difference by itself? BMR verticle links with spherical bearings didn't make any noises while I had them on and if noises were common, you'd expect to hear more about them on the forum.

If money's the only thing that Steeda cared about, why did Mike talk me out of purchasing a set of adjustable shocks and struts ($799.96) and recommended polyurethane vertical links ($149.95) for my issue? I gave it a shot since it's cheap and much easier to swap out than the struts, and it calmed the rear end enough for my liking so I'm happy with it.

So who cares Ford uses stock verticle links? They can't even get their spark plug gapped correctly on their cars and even the "performance pack" Mustangs came with cheap tires and cheap soft bushings so that it gets beat by Camaros stock for stock. Have you ever driven any of the Ford race vehicles to tell us how they handle on the street? Are their suspension forgiving enough for non-professional drivers on uneven roads? Are their suspension going to break the first time it hits a pothole or dip?

.<-the point






you ->


I've had over 3 different sets of tires on my GT, two of which had both aftermarket and stock links. The aftermarket links didn't do anything. Don't know if EcoBoost have the same wheel hop issue that GTs do.

Ford has done far more engineering to their racecar's than any of us, so I'm commenting on what they've done (or not done). But if you're going to make stupid posts like that I really have nothing for you. I could bitch about how "stupid" BMW was and what they should have done with my M3s from the factory, or pretty much any car company for that matter. But that's a lame argument and a waste of time.

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[TheLion]

If memory serves correctly GT350 fronts are 240 lbs. But I forget the rears rates. 250 lb fronts with gt350 damper valving sounds about right. What does the GT350 run in rear rates? I like easy to drive and being able to apply power early on corner exit so it does sound like BMR SP083 springs, FP Track Dampers and stock PP swaybars might be just about right. Especially on the street less bar will be more surefooted.

 

[TheLion]

That and I can always add more bar later if needed.

 

[Bull Run]

.<-the point






you ->


I've had over 3 different sets of tires on my car, two of which both had aftermarket and stock links. The aftermarket links didn't do anything.

Ford has done far more engineering to their racecar's than any of us, so I'm commenting on what they've done (or not done). But if you're going to make stupid posts like that I really have nothing for you. I could bitch about how "stupid" BMW was and what they should have done with my M3s from the factory, and pretty much any car company, bit that's a lame argument.

Nothing stupid about calling out fakes. You remind me of Stolen Valor cases were a fake servicemember talks like he's a Delta Ranger SEAL Special Forces sniper until you start to quiz them.

Aside from not listing the tires, you skipped the cradle lockouts and went straight to the verticle links. Like to know who at Steeda and/or BMR gave you that advice because you sound bitter about it. Speaking of deflecting, I guess there is a reason why you didn't list your experience or lack thereof. I take it you didn't ride any of Ford's race cars and have no idea how they handle. Thanks for the clarification! Please proceed with giving advice on subjects that you have zero experience on.

 

[Eritas]

Nothing stupid about calling out fakes. You remind me of Stolen Valor cases were a fake servicemember talks like he's a Delta Ranger SEAL Special Forces sniper until you start to quiz them.

Aside from not listing the tires, you skipped the cradle lockouts and went straight to the verticle links. Like to know who at Steeda and/or BMR gave you that advice because you sound bitter about it. Speaking of deflecting, I guess there is a reason why you didn't list your experience or lack thereof. I take it you didn't ride any of Ford's race cars and have no idea how they handle. Thanks for the clarification! Please proceed with giving advice on subjects that you have zero experience on.

I got a used set of links for free and tried it because they aren't hard to change and they are marketed as being amazing and stopping wheel hop, which they do not. Im not bitter because I didn't pay for them. I just didn't notice any improvement and hate to see people say they are amazing when they're not and Ford didn't even change them out in $125-250K race cars.

After a few months of driving in the rain, they started squeaking and needed to be replaced lubed. A few months later when they needed to be replaced lubed a second time, I put the stock links on and never looked back.

But go ahead and tell me how I "skipped" and should have done the cradle lockouts, items that probably actually do make a difference.

I never "recommend" anything, and asked Steeda and BMR to provide info and data on the benefit of their links, as well as explain why Ford didn't upgrade the links on these racecars. They never did.

You seem to be the kind that likes to swing around his "massive credentials". So please tell me your background and grounds to criticize my questioning of a tuner shop trying to sell products that aren't even changed out in pro race cars.

EDIT -

Actually I don't care after I saw your build. I don't take anyone seriously who runs sumitomos front and Continental rear tires.

And Steeda recommended not spending that money on different suspension because they already sold you on their shocks and a TON of other parts, so you're one of their "boys" and are just defending them here. That does not make up for their poor methods of trying to get new customers or helping the community like some of BMRs posts. I guess the "credential swingers" tend to stick together.

 

[Bull Run]

I got a used set of links for free and tried it because they aren't hard to change and they are marketed as being amazing and stopping wheel hop, which they do not. Im not bitter because I didn't pay for them. I just didn't notice any improvement and hate to see people say they are amazing when they're not and Ford didn't even change them out in $125-250K race cars.

After a few months of driving in the rain, they started squeaking and needed to be replaced lubed. A few months later when they needed to be replaced lubed a second time, I put the stock links on and never looked back.

But go ahead and tell me how I "skipped" and should have done the cradle lockouts, items that probably actually do make a difference.

I never "recommend" anything, and asked Steeda and BMR to provide info and data on the benefit of their links, as well as explain why Ford didn't upgrade the links on these racecars. They never did.

You seem to be the kind that likes to swing around his "massive credentials". So please tell me your background and grounds to criticize my questioning of a tuner shop trying to sell products that aren't even changed out in pro race cars.

EDIT -

Actually I don't care after I saw your build. I don't take anyone seriously who runs sumitomos front and Continental rear tires.

And Steeda recommended not spending that money on different suspension because they already sold you on their shocks and a TON of other parts, so you're one of their "boys" and are just defending them here. That does not make up for their poor methods of trying to get new customers or helping the community like some of BMRs posts. I guess the "credential swingers" tend to stick together.

Because you got something for free doesn't mean you don't need support mods for it. And I like that while you like to give recommendations, you like to avoid questions, further affirming my "Stolen Valor" comment.

Thanks for reading my build! I guess you skipped the part where I state that I like to experiment by trying out different parts, just like how you skipped the OPs part about "majority of my time will be on the street" and "will not be a drag car, but needs to 'hook up'" and keep bringing up Ford's race cars without having any clue how they handle on the street. That differentiates someone like me to a bench modder like you. Oh by the way swapping Sumitomos and Continentals back and forth showed me that Continental tires seem to have better traction, even though they have the same tread wear ratings and close in price. I guess EXPERIENCE teaches you a thing or two and I'm glad to share things that I learned. Oh and let's that a look at your "recommendations" below.

So at first you said camber plates won't be needed for the street. This is likely true for mild lower springs and made you sound like you have some experience on it.

Leave it alone for a while, or put mild lowering springs on it.

You don't need camber plates if you're staying on the street

But then you ask how about the camber increase from lowering, which is odd since your first recommendation stated that he doesn't need camber plates.

How much does the camber increase from lowering springs? Does that increase necessitate camber plates to reduce the camber back to 'streetable' settings, which is what the OP is looking for? If not, then they are "not needed" (for his use on the street)..

Then you recommend that he get a BMR's rear camber arm or Steeda's rear toe bracket to dial in. First of all, what exactly is Steeda's rear toe bracket and how does a "rear toe bracket" help him dial out that unwanted camber? And aside from being FIXED, BMR's own page state that their camber arms "work very well for drag racers who have lowered ride heights, and are looking for ZERO camber". Are you really recommending that he run ZERO camber on a street car that's not going to be built as a drag racer? I would've recommended Steeda's adjustable camber arms (if he does indeed end up with -2.5 camber with a crazy drop) so he can actually "dial" in whatever camber he wants.

It was nice that they mentioned the effect of rear camber gain from lowering the car. Since ~ -2.5* is too much and will increase rear tire wear, I'd get bmrs rear camber arm, or Steedas rear toe bracket to dial out that unwanted camber.

That's odd, you spew about Delrin based links being marketed for road course and street guys when Steeda's site states, "Delrin (555 4121): Recommended for Drag Racing & to eliminate wheel hop".

If the delrin/spherical vertical links do help for drag racing, then they should be marketed as such rather than trying to be sold to everyone under the sun, road course and street guys.

Please do continue spewing out recommendations and bashing products that you are clueless about and I'll keep helping you embarrass yourself.

 

[Eritas]

Man you are so obviously a steeda marketing tool.

II don' know why I typed Steeda toe link. I have no excuses for that when I was obviously talking about camber adjustment and they have a camber bracket.

You really need to work on your reading comprehension and understand context.

. Oh by the way swapping Sumitomos and Continentals back and forth showed me that Continental tires seem to have better traction, even though they have the same tread wear ratings and close in price.

Lol, you still think treadwear ratings mean anything? You need to read this:

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...LY-select-and-size-TIRES-for-PERFORMANCE.aspx

That's odd, you spew about Delrin based links being marketed for road course and street guys when Steeda's site states, "Delrin (555 4121): Recommended for Drag Racing & to eliminate wheel hop".

Quit making up stuff to try to discredit others. I never said to get a delrin link. BMR makes a poly one:

http://m.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=1688

If you read my conversation with theLion, you would understand the context of my comment that aftermarket vertical links SHOULD be marketed for drag racing if that's the only place they have a benefit, because I don't think they are needed for the OP, the street, or road course racing based off my testing and the fact Ford does not upgrade them on their race cars.

It's obvious I can't have a cordial or intelligent conversation with you so I am not going to further attempt one.

 

[Bull Run]

Man you are so obviously a steeda marketing tool.

II don' know why I typed Steeda toe link. I have no excuses for that when I was obviously talking about camber adjustment and they have a camber bracket.

You really need to work on your reading comprehension and understand context.

Lol, you still think treadwear ratings mean anything? You need to read this:

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...LY-select-and-size-TIRES-for-PERFORMANCE.aspx

Quit making up stuff to try to discredit others. I never said to get a delrin link. BMR makes a poly one:

http://m.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=1688

If you read my conversation with theLion, you would understand the context of my comment that aftermarket vertical links SHOULD be marketed for drag racing if that's the only place they have a benefit, because I don't think they are needed for the OP, the street, or road course racing based off my testing and the fact Ford does not upgrade them on their race cars.

It's obvious I can't have a cordial or intelligent conversation with you so I am not going to further attempt one.

Ha ha, I shared my personal experience and you share a link to a magazine. That's why I quoted your "recommendations" because I knew you'll change your story. And no, both BMR and Steeda market polyurethane VLs for road courses and street. Your very own statement complained about them marketing delrin/spherical vertical links for road course/street. Serious, do you even your quotes on posts?

I'm not going to change my story and change the facts about my tire experience because it was a valuable lesson. Unlike you, I fully admit that I'm new to handling mods with the S550 and I would've done some things differently had I knew what I know now when I started. But as they say, mistakes are best teachers. I learned a lot from this forum, including indirectly or directly from likes of @BmacIL , @wildcatgoal, @Nagare, @Roadway 5.0, @Norm Peterson, @Darkhelmet22, @BMR Tech, and @SteedaTech and many others I may have forgotten to mention, some who you're arguing with.

If you came onboard with a statement like "I had BMR verticle links on otherwise stock suspension and didn't feel any difference.", I would've totally agreed with you, but folks who recommended verticle links also listed other supporting mods. As matter of fact, Kelly didn't say not get vertical links because they are useless. He recommended LCA bearing kit over VLs, and as bang per buck goes, I totally agree. How do I know this? Because I have done the LCA bearing kit and the difference form it puts VLs to shame. And look at that, Kelly mentions that "poly offers some compliance" and that's pretty much what Mike said to try before going with adjustable dampers. He could've sold me much more expensive adjustables and advised to set the rears to soft, which could've accomplished the same goal. So is Kelly a lier for saying that there's some merit to VLs? Or that he actually bent a stock one?.

You will actually see my posts from 2014/2015 when I was testing, and many posts after that where I have stated clearly on this forum that vertical links are one of the most overrated parts for the IRS. Do I defend them, yes. I have personally bent a stock one on my own car while drag racing. Do they make a difference? Yes, in some cases they absolutely do. On my 2016 GTPP that I bought to rigorously test parts with for a span of 1 year and well over 20K miles, I noticed a very nice improvement during daily use with our Poly bushing links. What I have found is that the Delrin and Poly bushed links do a great job at assisting with stabilizing the knuckle assembly. The Delrin essentially locks it down, while the poly offers some compliance. The compression and extension loads on the links in stock form are more than capable of being handled by the stock design for most applications, though.

The issue that I have with your logic is that you presented Ford race cars as an example and challenged everyone who disagreed with you as to why those cars had stock VLs. Seriously, how do you expect any of us to know the Ford racing trade secret? Even if someone did, they'll likely be under an NDA and thus can't share anyways. And not to mention that almost none of us are driving purpose-built race cars on the street. Oh, and the BMR VL I had went to my friend who already has the cradle lockouts and he reported some improvement. I suppose he's a lier and a shill for BMR because he likes BMR VLs?

Man you are so obviously a steeda marketing tool.

You like to say that a lot when you have no facts to present. Similar to how Democrats and Republicans accuse each other for being shills to Fox News or CNN when they don't have any good rebuttal. I wouldn't mind being a marketing tool for Steela if they'll give me free stuff but I don't think that they'll like it very much when I order the new BMR CB762 because I love their cradle lockout kit and won't ditch it by switching over to the Steeda brace. And I wonder where my friend mentioned above got the idea to install the lockout kit on his car...

 

[SlaughterOfTheSoul]

If it's for wheel hop then the stiffer bushings make sense for reducing cyclical & un-ideal forward rotation of the hub assembly from any other resonant suspension components. The Ford race cars wouldn't need this because they're not starting from a stop constantly. The factory link itself is solid iron, so it's not the weak point. If it was going to bend, it would just crack.

That being said, changing the vertical link bushings transfers the stress to the "lower control arm to subframe" bushing. If you don't change that out as well, then you're not going to notice anything IMO. JUST changing out the vertical link is pointless.

 

[Eritas]

If it's for wheel hop then the stiffer bushings make sense for reducing cyclical & un-ideal forward rotation of the hub assembly from any other resonant suspension components. The Ford race cars wouldn't need this because they're not starting from a stop constantly. The factory link itself is solid iron, so it's not the weak point. If it was going to bend, it would just crack.

That being said, changing the vertical link bushings transfers the stress to the "lower control arm to subframe" bushing. If you don't change that out as well, then you're not going to notice anything IMO. JUST changing out the vertical link is pointless.

As I said before, the stock rubber bushings are THIN. There's not much deflection going on. I'd love to see some data of any aftermarket company that showed the amount of deflection from the stock bushing vs their poly bushing. I doubt there's much of a difference.

Plus the stock vertical link is SINGLE-SHEAR. No one has replied to this comment so they either don't understand that a link in single shear is significantly weaker than most suspension links, which are double-shear; or they don't want to address or admit that the forces going through the stock vertical link must not be that great to require a different bushing. -This is my point behind the stock vertical link not needing to be 'upgraded'. I'd like to have an educated debate on this topic rather than 'credential swinging' or personal attacks. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Also as I said before, Steeda posted a great video showing how the subframe bushings deflect and 'hop' significantly -one of the biggest causes of wheel hop:



Vertical links by themselves don't seem to do anything for wheel hop. My friend installed Steeda vertical links after he did this subframe bushing kit and didn't really notice a difference from the VL either. I'm torn on which subframe bushing kit to go with, I like that Steeda has made this video but their posts have put a sour taste in my mouth to want to give them business. BMR's will likely accomplish the same thing so I might go with them. Heck, I may even throw on my BMR poly VL on after the bushing kit to verify if they then make a difference or if I agree with my friend who said they didn't make a difference on his car.

 

[SlaughterOfTheSoul]

As I said before, the stock rubber bushings are THIN. There's not much deflection going on. I'd love to see some data of any aftermarket company that showed the amount of deflection from the stock bushing vs their poly bushing. I doubt there's much of a difference.

Plus the stock vertical link is SINGLE-SHEAR. No one has replied to this comment so they either don't understand that a link in single shear is significantly weaker than most suspension links, which are double-shear; or they don't want to address or admit that the forces going through the stock vertical link must not be that great to require a different bushing. -This is my point behind the stock vertical link not needing to be 'upgraded'. I'd like to have an educated debate on this topic rather than 'credential swinging' or personal attacks. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Also as I said before, Steeda posted a great video showing how the subframe bushings deflect and 'hop' significantly -one of the biggest causes of wheel hop:



Vertical links by themselves don't seem to do anything for wheel hop. My friend installed Steeda vertical links after he did this subframe bushing kit and didn't really notice a difference from the VL either. I'm torn on which subframe bushing kit to go with, I like that Steeda has made this video but their posts have put a sour taste in my mouth to want to give them business. BMR's will likely accomplish the same thing so I might go with them. Heck, I may even throw on my BMR poly VL on after the bushing kit to verify if they then make a difference or if I agree with my friend who said they didn't make a difference on his car.

The vertical link has to be changed in order to accommodate the style of bushing that isolates movement to a single direction. The stock bushings allow for slight twisting mount points. I don't think more strength is necessary for the power the Ford cars run at, but for directly coupled aluminum bushings it might become an issue. Using solid bushings with iron can be iffy because it's brittle.

I have no numbers or data, but the intuition that you need to address the rest of the suspension is probably correct. But if you're going to isolate all variables, I don't think reducing the potential movement in your vertical link so that couples better with the lower control arm is a bad thing. The only issue is, that it's probably pointless to do so until you couple your control arm with the body or sub-frame better.

Additionally, the lower hub bushing can take care of a lot of the rotation but the upper link has the most leverage in this scenario.

I could be wrong about all of this, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[Eritas]

The vertical link has to be changed in order to accommodate the style of bushing that isolates movement to a single direction. The stock bushings allow for slight twisting mount points. I don't think more strength is necessary for the power the Ford cars run at, but for directly coupled aluminum bushings it might become an issue. Using solid bushings with iron can be iffy because it's brittle.

I have no numbers or data, but the intuition that you need to address the rest of the suspension is probably correct. But if you're going to isolate all variables, I don't think reducing the potential movement in your vertical link so that couples better with the lower control arm is a bad thing. The only issue is, that it's probably pointless to do so until you couple your control arm with the body or sub-frame better.

Additionally, the lower hub bushing can take care of a lot of the rotation but the upper link has the most leverage in this scenario.

I could be wrong about all of this, so take it for what it's worth.

I guess the question is: How much does the stock VL bushings deflect? They don't seem to deflect much from what I can tell by looking at and removing them, and looking at the bushings in hand, the rubber is not that thick, so they are probably not deflecting anywhere near as much as the larger/thicker rubber bushings in toe links, lower control arm links, subframe, and diff bushings.

Is the VL iron? It looked like steel to me, and someone said they bent theirs (I'd like to see a pic of that and the context) so I'm not sure if your concerns of them being 'brittle' and breaking are warranted.

 

[BmacIL]

I guess the question is: How much does the stock VL bushings deflect? They don't seem to deflect much from what I can tell by looking at and removing them, and looking at the bushings in hand, the rubber is not that thick, so they are probably not deflecting anywhere near as much as the larger/thicker rubber bushings in toe links, lower control arm links, subframe, and diff bushings.

Is the VL iron? It looked like steel to me, and someone said they bent theirs (I'd like to see a pic of that and the context) so I'm not sure if your concerns of them being 'brittle' and breaking are warranted.

They are stamped steel. Definitely not brittle.

VLs are not a big piece of IRS puzzle at all. To say that the aftermarket versions do nothing would not be accurate, but I will say that it's small. Only under very specific conditions am I able to notice it (under slow corner exit, there's less chatter).

 

[SlaughterOfTheSoul]

Yeah I just checked on my car and they're stamped. I saw a video where they looked to be solid, so I was hoping that was where the difference laid.

 

[Bull Run]

As I said before, the stock rubber bushings are THIN. There's not much deflection going on. I'd love to see some data of any aftermarket company that showed the amount of deflection from the stock bushing vs their poly bushing. I doubt there's much of a difference.

Plus the stock vertical link is SINGLE-SHEAR. No one has replied to this comment so they either don't understand that a link in single shear is significantly weaker than most suspension links, which are double-shear; or they don't want to address or admit that the forces going through the stock vertical link must not be that great to require a different bushing. -This is my point behind the stock vertical link not needing to be 'upgraded'. I'd like to have an educated debate on this topic rather than 'credential swinging' or personal attacks. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Also as I said before, Steeda posted a great video showing how the subframe bushings deflect and 'hop' significantly -one of the biggest causes of wheel hop:



Vertical links by themselves don't seem to do anything for wheel hop. My friend installed Steeda vertical links after he did this subframe bushing kit and didn't really notice a difference from the VL either. I'm torn on which subframe bushing kit to go with, I like that Steeda has made this video but their posts have put a sour taste in my mouth to want to give them business. BMR's will likely accomplish the same thing so I might go with them. Heck, I may even throw on my BMR poly VL on after the bushing kit to verify if they then make a difference or if I agree with my friend who said they didn't make a difference on his car.

I re-read my posts from last night and I'm thinking that I was harsher than needed to be and I apologize for that. Perhaps I was in one of those moods as I was up late scanning for website vulnerabilities for my side gig (mods don't pay for themselves and being a "shill" for Steeda/BMR/whatever doesn't pay well ). Anyhow, I'm liking where this threads heading as we are now having an actual technical discussion on merits on VLs.

I took a picture of the backside of a stock VL and you can see that it has a good amount rubber bushing on the top side and I can stick a screwdriver through and wiggle it a bit. The bottom side has very little rubber and feels pretty solid. So my theory is that if you go with aftermarket VLs without supporting mods, you won't feel any difference because extra firmness will be observed by soft cradle bushings or as SlaughterOfTheSoul mentioned, by stock LCA bushing.

I'm not about to take of my current VLs just for comparison, but I have leftover diff insert bushings (I ended up using aluminum version as I'm willing to take a small NVH hit and diff noise for firmness). I know this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, using an unscientific fingernail test, 80 durometer polyurethane inserts feel a bit firmer than the OEM rubber, and 90 durometer ones feel almost as hard as a rock. Not sure what's the rating for OEM rubber bushings, but this site says they generally range between 50 to 70 durometers. And since OEM rubber bushings are known to degrade over time, perhaps the biggest improvement comes from having a fresh set of bushings. I'll bet Ford race cars get their bushings refreshed often, if not between every race, unlike the street cars.

I can't comment on Steeda ones, but I think that you'll be very happy with BMR CB005. I feel that improvement from it was greater than one from the LCA bearings.

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