student debt forgiveness is back

[Kong76]

In a big pickle with interest rates, inflation and debt. Think I will buy that supercharger now while this money is worth something.

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[Bikeman315]

Hello; OK I see where we have been at crossed up communication. I may have it wrong but do think the "forgiveness" word is a technical term for when a loan is taken off the books by means other than full repayment.
Say you borrowed money from me and later I told you that you do not have to pay me back any longer. The technical term is "forgiveness" has been my understanding.

Not the forgiveness of a mistake which is an entirely different thing. I suppose some of the confusion may have arisen from the points about how some college degrees do not pay well enough and could be thought of as mistakes. Sorry for not understanding the confusion such a misunderstanding can cause.

Gotcha. You are correct in regards to how the word is used. But words matter and in these supercharged times the word forgiveness can mean free, Socialism, etc. That's why I don't like it.

 

[bootlegger]

Hello; Afraid I do not know enough details about the other countries to make reliable comments. At least one thing I have heard is that in some of those countries the personal income taxes are very much higher than the USA. Also some debate about the quality of the health care. I do not have exact enough information to make strong counter points.

Healthcare is excellent in these countries. I lived in Italy and Germany. Both have great systems. Yeah, they pay a bit more in taxes, but they get much more out of it as well. Most German students get out of college and start working with zero debt. So they may make a little less take home, due to a higher tax level, but they aren't worried about using that money to pay back school loans. This also ties into why quality of life there is better than in the USA. They start saving for vacation and retirement the first day they enter the work world.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying all school should be free. I am advocating for government funded state university and trade school. These would be tax dollars well spent. The centrist in me doesn't think bailing out someone who chose to pay $100k a year for a degree they could have had for $50k a year is the answer. The kids who went to state school, as I did, who can't make ends meet due to loans deserve a little help.

 

[bootlegger]

Gotcha. You are correct in regards to how the word is used. But words matter and in these supercharged times the word forgiveness can mean free, Socialism, etc. That's why I don't like it.

I am with you on that. I hate when people call government funded healthcare or education"free". It isn't free, and the people who push it generally know that. We all pay in, even the people using it. Some pay in more than others, but that can be said about pretty much everything in government. So yeah, if I go to university in Germany, I am not paying for it. However, they get their money back from my tax dollars when I enter the working world. The real difference is that it starts everyone on an even playing field. My wife is fairly intelligent, but her parents really didn't care about college. They never pushed her, and they weren't going to pay for it, so she didn't go. Not having a degree has been a severe limitation in the working world she has been in. If she could have went to school for free, she would have ended up with a 4 year degree and she would have been making more money in the end. That also ends up better for the gov in tax revenue, and generally better for the economy because she has money to spend.

 

[RPDBlueMoon]

I am glad you guys understood what I meant, I do all my posting from my iPhone se, like 4 inch screen.
But yeah not militsry style, but a program to help educate then provide a job and fair pay etc do so long to help recoup the cost meanwhile they get experience.

gi bill would bankrupt America, it’s a real nice benefit, but if you served I feel you should get some help.

What dems want makes militsry pointless, and the people I met at college detested militsry benefits claiming it’s not fair and everyone should have them etc... for being a militsry based college a lot of turds hated military and those who served. Pro socialism where everything is a right is all they cared about. Brb taxing my income 80% to get everyone free stuff. No friggin way

Yeah my school is pretty liberal. I don't openly advertise that I was in the Army, but one day we were in a study group and I basically got shamed for being in the military. One of my classmates that I knew beforehand asked if I used to be in the military. Very frustrating to be in those situations, the school is a 'safe space' yet stuff like that happens and you cannot keep it real or you'll get kicked out of school. Its so stupid when civilians shit on veterans for trying to better themselves and blame them for shit they never did, but I digress.

What was funny about the situation is that at the same time there was a bunch of protests about getting graduated students an increase in COLA. So many people were asking me to join and trying to have undergrads support grad students in solidarity. I just thought it was ironic that the same people (at my school) will be the first ones to call out veterans/military and then at the same time come to them for support. It was one of those moments that felt good to watch someone talk shit to you and then turn around and ask for your help as they are suffering.

The veteran coordinator at my school had to put out an email telling everyone to relax and don't do anything stupid during the protests because he knew the situation and the hypocrisy. It was funny to be at the veteran resource center and hear what the veterans at my school had to say.

 

[Kong76]

Yeah my school is pretty liberal. I don't openly advertise that I was in the Army, but one day we were in a study group and I basically got shamed for being in the military.

What was funny about the situation is that at the same time there was a bunch of protests about getting graduated students an increase in COLA. So many people were asking me to join and trying to have undergrads support grad students in solidarity. I just thought it was ironic that the same people (at my school) will be the first ones to call out veterans/military and then at the same time come to them for support. It was one of those moments that felt good to watch someone talk shit to you and then turn around and ask for your help as they are suffering.

The veteran coordinator at my school had to put out an email telling everyone to relax and don't do anything stupid during the protests because he knew the situation and the hypocrisy. It was funny to be at the veteran resource center and hear what the veterans at my school had to say.

Thank you for your service. Anyone who disrespects our military service members needs a mental adjustment.

I wish you the best.

 

[Bikeman315]

I don’t know that movie, worth watching?

Are you kidding me? You've never seen Animal House? Do you live in a cave? Under a rock?

It is a classic. Must have seen it at least a couple of dozen times. I implore you, watch it immediately and report back. You are going to love it.

 

[sk47]

Gotcha. You are correct in regards to how the word is used. But words matter and in these supercharged times the word forgiveness can mean free, Socialism, etc. That's why I don't like it.

Hello; Like it or not the term has been around in it's understood meaning for many decades and likely centuries. Since the topic is forgiveness student loans then it makes sense to use the word with the traditional understanding.

 

[sk47]

We all pay in, even the people using it.

Hello; Not entirely correct. I know one fellow personally for sure and know of others who not only do not pay federal income taxes but do get checks from the government because income is low. Not just the other folks who are on some sort of government program or few and do get all the things needed to live from those programs.
The one fellow I know inherited a nice house to live in as well as a good amount of stocks and bonds. He gets income from the stocks and bonds plus doing odd jobs in his neighborhood. So actually lives a comfortable life but by the numbers his income is very low. So every year he would brag about getting a check from the government just because of the low income. That was before he became old enough for social security.

Now I do not have the most current numbers but just a few years ago there was a percentage of the population approaching 50% whose entire yearly support is from some form of state or federal support or both.

Now if a person drives a car and buys fuel there is a fuel tax paid. We all pay state sales taxes in all the states I have ever been in. However these are not the taxes that would pay for health care or college.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Hello; Not entirely correct. I know one fellow personally for sure and know of others who not only do not pay federal income taxes but do get checks from the government because income is low. Not just the other folks who are on some sort of government program or few and do get all the things needed to live from those programs.

All sorts of loopholes that come and go. I remember my father almost busting a vessel when he found out people making the equivalent of 6 figures in today's money were getting income tax refunds without paying a cent in. Called earned income credit for people with low/no income. The people in question were married and could live off one spouse's income. So they would file separately and one of them would put their pay into "deferred compensation" which, at the time anyway, meant it didn't count as income.

 

[sk47]

Called earned income credit for people with low/no income.

Hello; Yes you named it. Earned income tax credit. A program for those who work but have wages below some minimum standard or level of poverty.
The fellow I mentioned was one I went to middle and high school with. He was raised by his grandparents who were well to do. Had a nice life and nice things all his life because the grandparents had his back. Sometime in his 50's he inherited their house and their accumulated wealth. He had a new BMW for a while, but always a new car of some sort. Because his actual reported income was low he got a check from the federal government.

I understand your fathers feelings. I had much less in terms of things and wealth. Had to work two and sometimes three jobs for a time. But even tho I, in fact, had much less than this fellow, I always had to pay income taxes. Still do. Because I have a small pension from being a school teacher the amount of social security I draw is reduced by around 2/3rds. On top of that my pension is just enough so I have to pay tax on that small SS income.

Back to the point of the story. This fellow I grew up with was always taken care of by others. His grandparents for a long time. After they passed he only needed someone to take care of his health care until he made it to 65. He was for decades going on about how the government ought to guarantee health care and a minimum income. I can see the issue from his point of view since his interest income from his grandparents investments was enough to take care of his needs, but not enough for the nicer stuff he was use to having. Same for health care I guess.

Having been one of those who worked till the age of retirement I could never agree with his point of view. One thing about teaching public school in a poverty area is you get to see the impact of the various social programs up close. Several times over the years unruly students would start coming to school after missing a lot. They had no interest in getting an education. Mostly causing trouble. When I talked to them it often was because a judge had threatened to cut off their check if they were not in school.

Had another high school friend who became a social worker for a time. He explained how the social workers had to keep enough of a case load so as to keep their jobs. So they went out and recruited "clients". Not saying all the folks they recruited were not in need, Sure some had real needs. The social workers would walk the clients thru the system. He quit after a while and this was back in the 1970's so I do not have current inside information.

enough from me for a while.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Sooooooooo...... wonder what the odds are of this 10k passing??? Fiancé last class before dental hygienist school next year (this years class canceled due to covid) is $1100. that other 8.9k can go to a hellhorse kit if they are going to erase 10k in loans.

 

[Shifting_Gears]

The current situation with student loans is disgusting. Kids are brainwashed all through their public schooling that college is the only way to be successful. They are told by every adult authority figure in their life that it is an absolute necessity. Then they are locked into (bankruptcy exempt) predatory loans. The schools milk this situation for all they can. The worst part is they are alao double dipping from the government. Public universities receive federal grant money directly, and accept students who pay with federal loans. They have no incentive to keep costs down, so long as the money keeps coming in.

No amount of loan forgiveness, or stimulus is going to change this situation. Until there is loan reform and education reform, the cycle will continue. The education system is being run for profit, not for learning.

As far as the national debt is concerned, why not just make the corporations pay the federal taxes they owe? Hell, since the schools aren't actually non-profit, stop exempting them from taxes. Oh wait, I forgot, this is America. Corporate interests come first.

You beat me to it.

Education is a business and the focus is not on cranking out well educated, work ready young adults. It’s about having the campus with the most curb appeal, best sports teams, political alliances, etc.

Until the viewpoint and method in which we treat higher education is corrected, this problem will be compounded year over year.

I’m going with the very unpopular opinion and saying there’s many people that would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from having $10k lifted off their shoulders. At 18, 19, do you expect everyone to make a “sound” and fully understood decision about saddling yourself with debt for “a better future”?

While it is 100% true, students and or parents of students signed for and are responsible for this, it’s all part of the big picture in which we treat higher education.

 

[FreePenguin]

You beat me to it.

Education is a business and the focus is not on cranking out well educated, work ready young adults. It’s about having the campus with the most curb appeal, best sports teams, political alliances, etc.

Until the viewpoint and method in which we treat higher education is corrected, this problem will be compounded year over year.

I’m going with the very unpopular opinion and saying there’s many people that would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from having $10k lifted off their shoulders. At 18, 19, do you expect everyone to make a “sound” and fully understood decision about saddling yourself with debt for “a better future”?

While it is 100% true, students and or parents of students signed for and are responsible for this, it’s all part of the big picture in which we treat higher education.

None of that matters, we are paying off their education that they will benefit from if they chose the correct degree. There is zero reason why we should be paying for a degree that they own and cannot be taken away, and they are probably using to better themselves $. Probably to end up making more than many of the tax payers that are paying for it.

At 18, you are an adult, and you are responsible for your decisions, let it be a crime, or financial mistake. If someone was to receive forgiveness, it would be different if the degree could be taken away. I would support bailouts, if it was a physical item that could be revoked/nullified for real positions.

Imo, if you received a degree, you should not be able to use it. But it doesn't work that way. So they get to have everything without any loss. Not right. People who are behind on student debt should simply never receive tax returns til the debt is paid off if they are in delinquency.

 

[Shifting_Gears]

None of that matters, we are paying off their education that they will benefit from if they chose the correct degree. There is zero reason why we should be paying for a degree that they own and cannot be taken away, and they are probably using to better themselves $. Probably to end up making more than many of the tax payers that are paying for it.

At 18, you are an adult, and you are responsible for your decisions, let it be a crime, or financial mistake. If someone was to receive forgiveness, it would be different if the degree could be taken away. I would support bailouts, if it was a physical item that could be revoked/nullified for real positions.

Imo, if you received a degree, you should not be able to use it. But it doesn't work that way. So they get to have everything without any loss. Not right. People who are behind on student debt should simply never receive tax returns til the debt is paid off if they are in delinquency.

I agree the burden shouldn’t fall on taxpayers and it’s not my responsibility to pay for someone’s student debt or anyone’s to pay for mine.

My point is, stuff like this will keep happening as long as higher education is run as a profitable business. When the focus returns to education and not pocket stuffing, you can limit the source of everyone’s massive student loan debts.

There are other education models in the world that focus on the value of knowledge and skills based learning that don’t saddlebag the student with debt. It’s almost easier to graduate high school debt free, start from the ground floor and work your way up or learned a SKILLED trade where you can have a comfortable living. Something isn’t right about that.

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