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student debt forgiveness is back

FreePenguin

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If they're full on adults, how come they're not allowed to drink? On that note, why can't they rent a car under 21, and even after are penalized with a fee until 25? Is it something to do with not trusting their judgment?
Why do people bring up stuff like alcohol? I was in militsry at 17, and I felt zero issues with the fact I couldn’t drink until 21. Or buy cigarettes until 19 (alaska tobacco is 19 it may of changed since then though) or even 18 anywhere else. It’s just a rule and we follow it.

it’s just what it is. At 18 you can make whatever other mistake you want, kudos for allowing them to not get tanked legally and get behind a wheel before 21.
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FreePenguin

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So you're ok with rules that protect people from dumb, potentially life altering decisions, but not ok with protecting people from dumb, potentially life altering decisions?

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They are BETTERING their lives by going to college and paying and pulling loans. it is their fault. If they don't get a job to make the money to pay it back, I surely don't agree with forgiving it. not even a penny. alcohol is a sin tax, I really don't believe in alcohol or tobacco but it is up to the states to pick and enforce their own drinking age. They are still responsible for their actions in the end. no forgiveness.
 

Bikeman315

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They are BETTERING their lives by going to college and paying and pulling loans. it is their fault. If they don't get a job to make the money to pay it back, I surely don't agree with forgiving it. not even a penny. alcohol is a sin tax, I really don't believe in alcohol or tobacco but it is up to the states to pick and enforce their own drinking age. They are still responsible for their actions in the end. no forgiveness.
Since when do we equate an age to a level of responsibility? Since does when become 18 automatically determine that you are an adult? Both of these observations are incorrect.

Just how many 18 y.o.'s do you know that are/were well versed in the financial world. Sure there are some, but the majority are just dumb ass-holes (just like i was). Just look at the number of collage idiots out partying all summer.

Something else to consider when laying the blame solely at the feet of the student. How about the parents? I know mine were involved and quite frankly I believed what they did was in my best interest. Of course they though the school was doing what was in my best interest also. By the time my daughter went to college I knew the game and we didn't fall into it. But a lot of people still do and that's where the debt comes from.
 

sk47

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People who are behind on student debt should simply never receive tax returns til the debt is paid off if they are in delinquency.
Hello; This is one decent idea.
If they're full on adults, how come they're not allowed to drink? On that note, why can't they rent a car under 21, and even after are penalized with a fee until 25? Is it something to do with not trusting their judgment?
Since does when become 18 automatically determine that you are an adult? Both of these observations are incorrect.
Hello; The age of legal maturity is 18 in most states I know of. It is an age of consent to make a contract. It is not an indicator of a persons ability to make sound decisions.

Let me approach it from a different direction. To argue that people of age 18 to ____ (you fill in the upper limit) should not be held responsible because they are not mature has implications. Should they also not be able to make a contract to own a car, a house, rent an apartment and so on??? Should a 19 year old have to get a parents permission for these things.

I do get the argument about legal age of drinking and being able to join the military. If you can fight and die for the country at 18 then you also ought to be able to drink.

I can think of one incidence where at 19 having to get my parents permission would have been a positive. I married my first wife at 19. One among a few decisions I have made after turning 18 that did not turn out so well.

It is a matter of law as far as it goes for now. At 18 you can make a binding legal contract and have to live with the decision. For what it is worth I have know plenty of older folks who make poor decisions well past 18. For example I married my second wife at 34. I did stop after two, at least so far.
 

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I wonder if I can get a government subsidy for getting my trees cut down in my backyard???
| mean, it will make my life better, by not raking leaves in the Fall. Also, it will my neighbors lives better too as the branches that hang over the fence won't drop any leaves on their side of the fence. Hence making their lives better as they don't have to rake as many leaves or pay a landscaping crew to do it.
I wonder if that will work? I mean, why should I pay for it? Maybe the government will pay for it?? It makes peoples lives better, no?? 🤔 🤔 🤔
 

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sk47

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That's my point. On the one hand we're saying people are "adults" at 18, while at the same time treating them like children. Can't have it both ways.
Hello; I got your point without any trouble. I do notice you avoid my counterpoint. So let me get it straight, do all the 18 year old young adults (as defined by law) no longer get to buy cars, rent, get married or make other such contracts? So that the 18year old young adults who have taken out federal backed student loans can have an excuse to walk away from the debt they contracted for.

As you so distinctly stated, can't have it both ways. Among the arguments for federal student debt forgiveness, this "they are immature" is the least viable. Like I said I got married within a week of turning 19, a legal contract. I, personally, was happy to turn 18 and take on the world. I wanted to make my way in the world and be a self sustaining man. I made mistakes other than just getting married young and lived with them. The notion, at 18, of being looked at as an adolescent again is hateful to me.

Of course things have changed since 1965. Now young folks seem fine with hanging onto the apron strings for extended times, up into their 30's that i know of. I guess the fact the health care law allows a parent to coddle a young adult till 26 years of age is a sign.

I can still recall being 18 years old and had just left my mothers home. I was both scared about an unknown future and eager to get on with it. Never was offered a do-over.
 

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Hello; This is one decent idea.



Hello; The age of legal maturity is 18 in most states I know of. It is an age of consent to make a contract. It is not an indicator of a persons ability to make sound decisions.

Let me approach it from a different direction. To argue that people of age 18 to ____ (you fill in the upper limit) should not be held responsible because they are not mature has implications. Should they also not be able to make a contract to own a car, a house, rent an apartment and so on??? Should a 19 year old have to get a parents permission for these things.

I do get the argument about legal age of drinking and being able to join the military. If you can fight and die for the country at 18 then you also ought to be able to drink.

I can think of one incidence where at 19 having to get my parents permission would have been a positive. I married my first wife at 19. One among a few decisions I have made after turning 18 that did not turn out so well.

It is a matter of law as far as it goes for now. At 18 you can make a binding legal contract and have to live with the decision. For what it is worth I have know plenty of older folks who make poor decisions well past 18. For example I married my second wife at 34. I did stop after two, at least so far.
That's my point. On the one hand we're saying people are "adults" at 18, while at the same time treating them like children. Can't have it both ways. If we don't trust the judgement of 18 year olds to responsibly drink, smoke, rent cars/hotels, etc, then how can they be expected to make an informed decision on high-interest 20+ year loans? Most people at 18 haven't lived on their own, paid bills, or had to support themselves. The concept of a loan payment is an intellectual abstraction to them because they don't have the life experience required to fully appreciate what they are doing. Throw in the fact that every figure of authority in their life pushes them towards taking out loans just compounds the situation.
Speaking from personal experience, and can also affirm I was not a business major, I had no idea what I was getting into with undergrad and grad school loans. I was basically an older care free high-school student in undergrad, didn't feel debt or what it was because I didn't know to ask, and in grad school where I was more aware of what debt was, the school, like what others pointed out, made educational loans seem harmless, normal, and part in parcel with acceptance to the school. In my case, the loan servicer, advised to me from the financial office of the school, was uber predatory with its interest rates and deferment costs. At that point I was 21. My school told me something was okay, I believed them, and I was, in fact, duped.

What I find more appalling is the ever increasing costs of tuition rendering an affordable college experience hard to create. That, and in this day and age, for most vocational schools just make more sense than a bloated education.
 

sk47

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I didn't ignore your point. What I've been advocating is for education/loan reform to prevent this predatory situation. We asking adult-but-not-adults to make this choice in the first place. Loan forgiveness is a bandaid for a bullet wound.

And no, I don't think unemployed people with no financial history should be able to get a loan of car/house/degree magnitude. Unqualified people being given loans is a burden we all have to bear, whether or not the government uses tax dollars to bail them out. See the housing market crash for a very poignant example.
Hello; Fist I can agree with some reforms to the "predatory" methods that may exist. Maybe like the information now required on credit card forms and automobile loans where some of the important information has to be made clear. That said I still do not see how a person of whatever background can "borrow" money and not have the basic understanding the loan "must" be repaid in some form. In fact, it is my take, one of the big lures of a federal backed loan was the much lower interest rate charged compared to a regular institution such as a bank. I have not looked at the details of these loans in over 50 years so may be mistaken. Are the federal backed loans not re-payed at a lower interest rate any longer? This again may be just a mixing of terms but I usually think of "predatory" loans being those with very high and unreasonable repay interest rates. Are you saying the federal backed loans have higher rates than a bank would require?
Perhaps you mean the agents who sell the loans are predatory which is another thing altogether.

Second the "adult-but-not-adults" tactic is a poor one. It is the law for one thing. I would not loan money to a 16 year old nor would I enter into a contract with someone of that age. I can buy into the notion they are a bit too young, but mainly such a thing would not enforceable under the law. For an 18 year old and also for a very long time, many decades, it is legal to make a binding contract. Again you have failed to answer my questions. First how old should a person be to be considered a legal age adult? Is it 22, 24, 26, 28 or greater?
Next question repeated. Buy the standard you espouse then logically a 18 or 19 or so on cannot make legal contracts such as buying a car on their own. Is this what you want? Can you picture a 19 year old in the military not being able to purchase a car unless mommy or daddy co-sign? I cannot.

About the comment of you made "unemployed people with no financial history should be able to get a loan of car/house/degree magnitude. Unqualified people being given loans is a burden we all have to bear,"
A few things can be said. First the discussion so far has been limited to student loan debt, so an expansion to other sorts of debts can be worth looking at but perhaps ought to be tied in somehow. I know about liar loans and the housing crisis.
But allow me to work from the statement this way. If I go to a bank to borrow money they will ask for some collateral. My house is paid for so I could put up the house. I have used a saving account in the past. My first wife took out loans from a local bank but her father had co-signed for her. I assumed her debt when we married. ( side note -no I did not understand I had assumed her debt when I married her at 19 to be sure. I did payoff the debt.)
My point being some, if not most, freshmen going to college will not have property or savings to use as collateral. Some may have parents with enough money but I suspect too much parental money might disqualify.
So the federal government is the collateral for many of the student loans. Not such a bad deal for young adults who might not get any loan at all otherwise. Add this to my belief these federal loans are at favorable repay interest rates, then these federal loans are a sweetheart deal to begin with. Maybe compare such a loan to someone trying to raise capitol to open a shop or some other small business who has only a bank to go to with no federal backing.

So after getting a sweetheart deal on the loan in the first place we (the tax payers) now are expected to "forgive" that sweetheart deal because the person who took the deal is (1) immature (2) picked a poor degree and cannot get the dream job (3) Has a job but cannot have nice stuff for a lot of years due to making loan repayments or (4) fill in the blank________.

By the way I will notice if you fail to address my questions again. I cannot make you respond, but figure you are at the point where where credibility is at stake.
 

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Before we go down the credibility path why don’t we take a second and go over exactly what is being proposed. Turns out I was not as informed as I thought I was regarding this topic. Maybe other will find the same.

 

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Before we go down the credibility path why don’t we take a second and go over exactly what is being proposed. Turns out I was not as informed as I thought I was regarding this topic. Maybe other will find the same.
That's a GREAT idea!!!
Just take it out of their wages. Garnish their wages to pay back over 20 years or so. That works for me! As long as the tax payers aren't on the hook for someone else's education.
 

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That's a GREAT idea!!!
Just take it out of their wages. Garnish their wages to pay back over 20 years or so. That works for me! As long as the tax payers aren't on the hook for someone else's education.
it shouldn't be optional to enroll into, you either pay your fee's or get it taken out like child support. that is the only correct answer. or foreit all tax returns til its paid.
 

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it shouldn't be optional to enroll into, you either pay your fee's or get it taken out like child support. that is the only correct answer. or foreit all tax returns til its paid.
OH, that's optional?!?! Yeah, that's not good.
It should be mandatory. 100%!
 

FreePenguin

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OH, that's optional?!?! Yeah, that's not good.
It should be mandatory. 100%!
yeah I watched the video, the REPAYE act, you enrolled into it on your own.

it should be, if you miss a payment, or a couple payments, bam, enrolled for life til you care caught up. no forgiveness though, no relief of debt. just pay what you owe. the video said like 60% of the highest earners don't even pay their debt. why would they? probably know there's no teeth in anything.

that is the issue, it needs to be strictly enforced, if you are making $$. better believe id force your tax returns to be jacked. (everyone) but its funny that the highest earners are literally dipping on paying crap.

I don't support any money being forgiven to anyone. its their fault.
 

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yeah I watched the video, the REPAYE act, you enrolled into it on your own.
I don't support any money being forgiven to anyone. its their fault.
I watched the video as well. I thought it was mandatory? If not, that's a JOKE!

And I agree with you 100%. You make the choice to go to college, pay the bill. I didn't go out and order a Porsche GT3, because I knew I couldn't afford it, even with a 10 year loan!
 

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I don't support any money being forgiven to anyone. its their fault
That’s a little severe Donald. You know the old saying about “to walk in another mans shoes”? How about the hundreds of thousands who have lost their jobs, their livelihoods, their homes, etc, just due to this pandemic In the past year? I don’t think it was there fault.

Listen, I don’t believe in free handouts either but there are circumstances that I would certainly consider appropriate.
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