student debt forgiveness is back

sk47

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The other question is one I have asked before. If, as your link presents, college is a key to success and a better more well rounded life, then why are those with a degree having such a hard time paying back their student loans?
Hello; In the latest posts an interesting tactic has been employed. That being in part that being well educated has personal and societal benefits. If I have appeared to dismiss this notion, then I hope to be more clear.
I did not mean to imply any sort of absolute about the value of a higher education. There is a range of outcomes with regard to the quality of an education and the benefits of an education.

I think back to the students in most of my public school classes. Just as there were the ner-do-well sorts who managed to graduate while being illiterate. There were the sorts who managed to overcome the hurdles so prominent in the public schools of the USA and get an education. Not perhaps the better education they could have gotten if some of those hurdles had not been in their way. Also not that my speaking out to the bosses in my public schools ever made much difference.
An example. In one middle school we were on a six class per day schedule. I had five classes and one planning period. The philosophy was to spread the trouble maker students out into all the classes. Bear in mind this was after all the effective discipline methods had been removed, which is another story. So each class became a contest between the rowdy students and a teachers efforts to present something worth while educationally. So in several teachers meetings I would suggest putting all the trouble makers into one class. That way each teacher would only have to deal with them one class a day and the other four classes of better behaved students could have a much improved educational experience. The powers that be did not go for that plan. I can tell you why if you are interested.

I do not have any doubt some will get a good education in college. That those who do get a good education will be a positive for society also is not in doubt. Those who work at it and do get a decent education are not the issue. If all college level students worked hard and did the education thing properly, at least one of the issues would not be the problem it currently is. By properly, I mean, an important element must be part of the picture. That element has to be the education implied by a degree must be financially viable. At least one outcome of that degree needs to be a means to financially self sufficient.
I get that some have mentioned "basket weaving" in a derisive fashion. Putting such a degree down because it is not one which will lead to a decent paying job. No matter how well rounded a degree in "basket weaving" may make an individual, there still is the need to pay bills and put food on the table. So if a person gets such a degree and cannot pay back the money borrowed, then a currently popular notion is to let the rest of us pay for it.

Another analogy. I am active in a thread about the demise of the ICE (internal combustion engine). A recent move by those in power is to renew, expand and extend government incentives for the purchase of battery powered vehicles. This is likely just fine for those inclined to own such a vehicle. However the money for those government incentives comes from all of us who pay taxes, even those of us who do not wish to own a battery vehicle. This being a Mustang forum, my guess is few on here care about such a vehicle.
I will even guess most of us do not mind if the guy down the street owns a battery vehicle. That is his/her business. To each his/her own sort of attitude. What I and perhaps many others do not like is that I, as a taxpayer, will now be paying some of the cost so my neighbor can buy one.
Even if the argument can be made that my neighbors electric car is a benefit to society. Similar in concept to the argument that a college degree is an overall benefit to society, then who foots the bill ought to make a difference. So the neighbors electric car saves some slim amount of carbon for society, the major benefit goes to the electric car owner may be the way it works. Without incentives electric cars cost too much up front to be a financial savings over the cost of other fuels. Give enough incentives, at an expense to the rest of us, then the owner of an electric car may come out ahead.
Student loan debt forgiveness has that same element of being paid for with someone else's money.





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jtmat

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Hello; Read thru some of the link you provided. Very slick presentation. Two questions came to mind. First being what is the College Board and what is it's agenda? I have not done any research so cannot say myself. It it a neutral outfit which simply presents facts or is it in some way possibly an ad agency?
The other question is one I have asked before. If, as your link presents, college is a key to success and a better more well rounded life, then why are those with a degree having such a hard time paying back their student loans?
How is it possible that someone who proclaims to be a teacher and worked in high school and college don't know about the college board?

I was not a teacher but worked at a college. Everyone knew the college board.... but you need someone to tell you about it. 😞

Anyway, why people would have a hard time paying back their loans has been discussed in this thread already. Not sure you can honestly participate without understanding that fundamental argument. I can tell you about 20 percent are in default. To really understand the answer to your question, you would need to do some research on where that debt is held, what schools they attended, etc.

Most won't research and will resort to Simple Simon and say "I won't pay", "teach me/research for me", "it is not fair", "can I buy a plane", "I paid mine, f them"....

And it is funny listening to some people drone on about this issue but can't make simple moves in their own lives. Their one-dimensional rants are a bit entertaining to read. Sounds like they have other issues though - been a disappointing couple of months. :clap:
 

sk47

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How is it possible that someone who proclaims to be a teacher and worked in high school and college don't know about the college board?

I was not a teacher but worked at a college. Everyone knew the college board.... but you need someone to tell you about it. 😞

Anyway, why people would have a hard time paying back their loans has been discussed in this thread already. Not sure you can honestly participate without understanding that fundamental argument. I can tell you about 20 percent are in default. To really understand the answer to your question, you would need to do some research on where that debt is held, what schools they attended, etc.

Most won't research and will resort to Simple Simon and say "I won't pay", "teach me/research for me", "it is not fair", "can I buy a plane", "I paid mine, f them"....

And it is funny listening to some people drone on about this issue but can't make simple moves in their own lives. Their one-dimensional rants are a bit entertaining to read. Sounds like they have other issues though - been a disappointing couple of months. :clap:
Hello; Fair enough. If you impose a standard and I do not meet that standard, then in your eyes my points and arguments are by your self imposed definitions not worthy. For what it may be worth as I read thru the link provided about the College Board I was familiar with the points included. Those sorts of notions have been thrown at me over the decades. I probably got the information from the College Board but likely did not pay much attention to the source. My bad.

Here is something I have observed about the discussion tactics you employ. Not bad tactics for that matter, but they have become well known. In the quote of mine you included four questions I asked of you. You did not address any of those questions, but took a tract of moving to a tangent. I asked what is the College Board? You went on about how I must in some way be inferior to not know about the College Board.

I asked what is it's agenda? You have not yet responded. Never mind since reading thru the link their agenda is clear enough.

I asked if it is a neutral entity or perhaps an ad agency? Is it an organization which in neutral?

I will try another analogy. First with the admission it will be flawed, but hopefully will make a point. Some years ago I lived in a county whose main industry was coal. The county leaders wound up with funds from all citizens marked to be used for some sort of structure for the benefit of the general public. It could have been a park. It could have been a public swimming pool. It could have been a number of other projects.
What it wound up being was an extension of the air port runway so twin engine airplanes could land and take off. Well I happened to be acquainted with some in the know. It turned out the bosses of the big coal companies had larger airplanes they could not fly into the county. So they got an extended runway.
The public message was that the new runway would make it possible to fly sick children and people out when needed. Also that the owners of those planes would make them available. I do think a couple of sick kids were flown out which made the news. Then less was heard about it. I do know when my second wife had a broken back from a car wreck and needed to be in Lexington KY for surgery, I did ask for a flight. Did not happen so she had to ride in an ambulance for over three hours. Do I need to be more clear about the point of this?
 

FreePenguin

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That has nothing to do with student debt. Atleast I don’t see any relation to runways or ambulances or anything....
 

bootlegger

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your comment about top students being free- what’s wrong with that exactly? Exceptional students that literally earned those rides shouldn’t get it? Imo they competed.

The classclown kid in school imo shouldn’t get a free ride or equal opportunity as that exceptional one.
Not all children have the same backgrounds, opportunities, and assistance to get them to the top of the class. Most of the top students have parents who are there to help and push them. Trust me, I was a top student and part of the gifted program in elementary school. Every student I knew in the gifted program had supportive parents and stable homes.
Just because you can't be in the top ten, doesn't mean you don't deserve a chance at higher education. Once again, research shows the benefit of getting more kids higher education. This country has fallen behind here for years, while our schools keep getting more expensive. No one is saying the class clown needs to get a free pass, but it would be nice for the B students to have the same benefits as the A+ students. I find that the people who fight the hardest against supplementing some higher education are often the ones that either never got the opportunity themselves, or they had the opportunity and didn't take full advantage of it.
 

bootlegger

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Hello; Fair enough. If you impose a standard and I do not meet that standard, then in your eyes my points and arguments are by your self imposed definitions not worthy. For what it may be worth as I read thru the link provided about the College Board I was familiar with the points included. Those sorts of notions have been thrown at me over the decades. I probably got the information from the College Board but likely did not pay much attention to the source. My bad.

Here is something I have observed about the discussion tactics you employ. Not bad tactics for that matter, but they have become well known. In the quote of mine you included four questions I asked of you. You did not address any of those questions, but took a tract of moving to a tangent. I asked what is the College Board? You went on about how I must in some way be inferior to not know about the College Board.

I asked what is it's agenda? You have not yet responded. Never mind since reading thru the link their agenda is clear enough.

I asked if it is a neutral entity or perhaps an ad agency? Is it an organization which in neutral?

I will try another analogy. First with the admission it will be flawed, but hopefully will make a point. Some years ago I lived in a county whose main industry was coal. The county leaders wound up with funds from all citizens marked to be used for some sort of structure for the benefit of the general public. It could have been a park. It could have been a public swimming pool. It could have been a number of other projects.
What it wound up being was an extension of the air port runway so twin engine airplanes could land and take off. Well I happened to be acquainted with some in the know. It turned out the bosses of the big coal companies had larger airplanes they could not fly into the county. So they got an extended runway.
The public message was that the new runway would make it possible to fly sick children and people out when needed. Also that the owners of those planes would make them available. I do think a couple of sick kids were flown out which made the news. Then less was heard about it. I do know when my second wife had a broken back from a car wreck and needed to be in Lexington KY for surgery, I did ask for a flight. Did not happen so she had to ride in an ambulance for over three hours. Do I need to be more clear about the point of this?
You are replying to the wrong person. Go reread. I stated their bias, and why it isn't relevant to the data. Nor is it relevant to the research presented. You tend to post in a polite manner, but refuse to dig into the data presented, which is disingenuous. I can also tell your political position by your unwillingness to look beyond your own experiences and world. Go live in almost any other wealthy country in the world. I did. You will see the benefits that the research reports first hand.
If you did intend to reply to me, then I would have to state you know nothing of my "tactics". If you want to know my ideals, I am happy to lay it out. My parents were educators. I believe in education. I know the benefits of education. My goal is to help others realize the benefits.
 

sk47

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That has nothing to do with student debt. Atleast I don’t see any relation to runways or ambulances or anything....
Hello; That is the nature of an analogy. True that one was not a very good fit to student debt or even to organizations such as the College Board. There is a point. Or at least I had a point in mind.

In particular the analogy was an attempt at a point about how what the public may be told about a thing may focus on the positive aspects and will not necessarily include the less popular side of things. The public was sold the idea an extended runway would be a benefit to all while the reality was it not a benefit to all. Some got good benefit from the new runway while most did not. No doubt there is benefit from a college degree for some and a measure of benefit to society. I did say the analogy was flawed up front. Please dismiss that analogy since it did not convey a point well. My apology for including that story. While true it did not fit into this discussion well.

From reading the link about the College Board I gathered it must be pro college from all the positive things cited in the link. A fact is back when I started as an undergraduate in 1965 the classical view of higher education was still very popular. The view that such an education should include a wide range of course work to make a more well rounded person. There is truth in such a view point. A more well rounded person can be a boon to society as well as themselves.
I think there may have been a time when such a generalized college education conferred to the person a path to success. A time when a degree spanning a wide range of course work was a fine thing. Not so sure such an approach to higher education is as viable today. Among the points I try to make is the one which begs a question. If a person A gets a degree in engineering today the odds are very good that person will get a good paying job. If person B gets a more obscure degree in some area without much demand in the job market the odds are much worse for a good paying job.
If a good paying job did not matter then the sort of degree a person has also would not matter. Both person A and person B could wind up being well rounded individuals which is not a bad thing. That person B may wind up with a debt they cannon repay may be the bigger difference in todays world. I will not try to come up with another analogy to make the point. Student debt is a big deal for those who cannot pay back the loans.
The education they borrowed money in order to get will not pay enough in terms of a job they can find. Now the push is for the general public to pick up the tab. That a lot of those in the general public do not see why they should be on the hook for someone else's bills should not be a surprise. A college degree may truly in some ways be a sort of benefit to society at large. This is a vague concept, but the cost to the general public who is being asked to pay the bills is not vague.
 

sk47

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You are replying to the wrong person. Go reread. I stated their bias, and why it isn't relevant to the data. Nor is it relevant to the research presented. You tend to post in a polite manner, but refuse to dig into the data presented, which is disingenuous. I can also tell your political position by your unwillingness to look beyond your own experiences and world. Go live in almost any other wealthy country in the world. I did. You will see the benefits that the research reports first hand.
If you did intend to reply to me, then I would have to state you know nothing of my "tactics". If you want to know my ideals, I am happy to lay it out. My parents were educators. I believe in education. I know the benefits of education. My goal is to help others realize the benefits.
Hello; Even if we strongly disagree with each other a civil discussion can be had. It may not be likely but it is possible you could write something which will give me pause. Maybe even to rethink. If we become vulgar with each other then no such exchange is possible.
If I cannot make a point in a civilized manner, then my point may not have much worth.

Yes I am a victim of my personal experiences in the world.
 

jtmat

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Hello; Fair enough. If you impose a standard and I do not meet that standard, then in your eyes my points and arguments are by your self imposed definitions not worthy. For what it may be worth as I read thru the link provided about the College Board I was familiar with the points included. Those sorts of notions have been thrown at me over the decades. I probably got the information from the College Board but likely did not pay much attention to the source. My bad.
I did not give it that much thought... honestly... I was giving you a hard time. I thought it was rather surprising/shocking someone who claimed to spend so much time in the education space never heard of the college board. Only thing that made sense was you are a vampire and stopped teaching in the early 1900s. 100% sure I'm correct on this guess - it's the cool van. lol

Here is something I have observed about the discussion tactics you employ. Not bad tactics for that matter, but they have become well known. In the quote of mine you included four questions I asked of you. You did not address any of those questions, but took a tract of moving to a tangent.
I'm here to learn. Not here to answer questions for people who are too lazy to perform basic searches. Really a waste of time if the person is far left/right (they are mostly comical in their postings). As an independent, I like to read/hear the thoughts from multiple sources on topics. I don't like to use forums as my personal blog.

I'm still waiting to see what Biden comes up with. I personally don't see "education" as his crowning achievement or the thing he changes the most. Think it will be a coat of paint and retreads.... left won't like it and the right won't like it. I could be wrong.

I'm more concerned about other areas of his agenda.

I asked what is the College Board? You went on about how I must in some way be inferior to not know about the College Board.

I asked what is it's agenda? You have not yet responded. Never mind since reading thru the link their agenda is clear enough.

I asked if it is a neutral entity or perhaps an ad agency? Is it an organization which in neutral?
Seemed rather obvious to me... the college board is a billion dollar company in the education space. The more kids who take their tests or training classes the more money they make. Obviously, they think EVERYONE should go to college. Okay, exaggerating here.

Does that make their research bogus? Not necessarily. Would you rather make decisions based on research from an independent third party? Sure.

Do I need to be more clear about the point of this?
Your analogies are entertaining, but I don't think they are very clear. At least for me. I enjoy reading them though. The "Willie" story had me rolling... imagining him calling you a "cheap MF" was something else. The story about failing the 17 kids was disheartening. You were "retired on active duty" and did not connect but then blamed the kids. Any of that matter? My personal thoughts. Overall, your posts are great... like your contribution.

Overall - I do find it strange at the end of several posts about the topic of education, people have said something like "nothing you/we can do". Like they don't know a political process exists.
 
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FreePenguin

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I still support my statement I don’t see why you shouldn’t award the exceptional students over subpar.

just like sports since you guys like analogies. Losers shouldn’t receive trophies to make themselves feel equal. They compete and earn the trophy, not everyone gets one because it’s fair

:whew:
 

sk47

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I still support my statement I don’t see why you shouldn’t award the exceptional students over subpar.

just like sports since you guys like analogies. Losers shouldn’t receive trophies to make themselves feel equal. They compete and earn the trophy, not everyone gets one because it’s fair

:whew:
Hello; Well in some ways better students are already better rewarded, at least they use to be. There are numerous scholarships available for students who qualify. May be many are not government funded. I also suspect the admissions boards take into account the GPA's and test scores.

I think I used the example of how I had asked to have the trouble makers put into one class so the other five classes of well behaved students would be better served. The authorities would not allow this using discrimination as a reason.
I think the idea was since all parents paid taxes that students could not be segregated according to behavior. I argued that if an individuals behavior improved they could join the other classes, but that was not acceptable also.
I argued what about the rights of the well behaved students to get a decent chance for an education if the class was not being constantly disrupted, but the rights of the well behaved did not count.

And to your point about sports. That is one area carved out from the rules applied to the rest of society. Apparently sports are an exempted area. Let me tell another story. For some reason I was sent to watch the gym teachers physed class one day. When I got there I found the schools basket ball players were having a practice session and the non basketball players were sitting in the bleachers just watching.
The coach/physed teacher was also the assistant principal. He had arranged schedules so as to have all the basket ball team in one class. The team used the class as a practice session. Well I did not yet have enough time in for a pension so could not do anything effective. But for the times I had to watch his class all the students could be active. Might be why after a time I was no longer asked to watch his class. I also got my planning period back.
Side note- We teachers who had a home room had to make out lists of classes the students in our home rooms had. So when I would send the list of my home room students to that same coach I would add a couple of made up names to the list. Alfred E. Neuman always got an A same as the real students. Where it might take a day or two for the other teachers to get the grades back to me, but that guy had the list of all A's back in about fifteen minutes.
 

MIDLYFE

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Why is the cost of college tuition so ridiculously overpriced is the overlooked question in public discourse? Having the kid who opts out of college pay for the kid who gets a useless degree in gender studies is abject stupidity. The government shouldn't be in the business of picking winners and losers but that shipped sailed years ago unfortunately.

It reminds me of the obvious answer (that never gets addressed) in the climate change debate. Going nuclear is the only way to significantly reduce harmful emissions, yet it is rarely mentioned in these debates.
 

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Look at the bright side, at least now boys can compete with the girls in HS sports, so the guys have way better odds of getting a scholarship in basketball, volleyball, softball and track.
 

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Oh look I missed this thread about school loans. sounds like mine....lol
 

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