student debt forgiveness is back

[bootlegger]

Now I do not have the most current numbers but just a few years ago there was a percentage of the population approaching 50% whose entire yearly support is from some form of state or federal support or both.

If 50% of the population is making so little that they need government assistance, then so be it. But that number is incorrect. The last census showed the number to be 21%. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2015/cb15-97.html
Just because people don't make much, doesn't mean they don't need and deserve proper healthcare or higher education. That is my main issue with this country. The wealthy get to go to college if they want to, or in many cases, the kids with families willing to cosign a student loan. It isn't like that in many other countries that absolutely destroy us when it comes to education. If you are willing to put in the work and keep your grades reasonable, there should be a easy or free path to higher education for you. Same with those who want to learn a trade. If we followed the lead of many countries like Germany, these educational opportunities would be covered in the taxes you paid. I do, however, agree that some reform needs to happen before we take that step. Many US colleges charge more for a 4 year degree than it costs for a house.

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[sk47]

If 50% of the population is making so little that they need government assistance, then so be it. But that number is incorrect. The last census showed the number to be 21%. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2015/cb15-97.html
Just because people don't make much, doesn't mean they don't need and deserve proper healthcare.

Hello; First it is good to have some actual figures to go by. A few questions come to mind. First being as I read this it appears to be federal assistance programs only. I may be wrong but did not see indicators of state assistance figures. It is my understanding some assistance programs are state run and may affect the percentages.
I also note you picked one of the numbers (21%) to post. As I read thru the link there were other higher percent figures included. For example one was a percentage over 60%. I will need to look the link over so me more to see if I can better understand.
If the figures hold up then I will stand corrected.

About the need and deserve health care part of your post, I will leave the topic alone. That could be an entire thread topic on it's own. Also is quite far from the student debt forgiveness of this thread. Health care is a topic worth discussion so perhaps start a new thread?

 

[sk47]

Who receives government benefits, in six charts - The Washington Post
Hello; Did some searching. Turns out it is hard to find information which is clear on the subject of overall percentage of use of social programs. The link above at least presents the numbers in more of a story form rather than a listing of disjointed percentages.
To be clear the information I find so far does not fully support my earlier contention of nearly 50% of the population being dependent on government programs. What I find when looking deeper into the issue is that it is a mixed bag of facts. In some ways my contention is supported, while in other ways it may be that a portion of the population is partially dependent.
Not sure if it is totally fair of me to include those who need partial assistance to make it. In one sense I could make the argument that even partial support ought to count. If you have 80% of what is needed to survive and depend on the government for the other 20%, then your survival could be said to depend on that 20%. On the other hand 20% assistance is a far cry from 100% assistance.
I will have to consider this some more.

 

[FreePenguin]

Remove these benefits now. Prices will fix themselves

 

[sk47]

If you are willing to put in the work and keep your grades reasonable, there should be a easy or free path to higher education for you.

Hello; In some respect the federal backed student loan program has been the easy way for those of us without other means to go to college. The program helped me as I did not have money of my own and very little financial help from my parents. I could not have borrowed from a bank on my own. I went to college in 1965 to 1970 so there has been a path like you describe. Best I can recall the interest rate was fair and the repayment was spread out over ten years. I think I had a few months grace before having to start a repayment program.
I guess this thread has helped me understand that the federal student loan program has been a fair and easy way for those of us with the need of financial assistance. What I now call a sweetheart deal.
Since my time some serious flaws have worked there way into the process. Too many make poor choices about a major in terms of making a living after college. Too many borrow too much and perhaps spend on things unrelated to getting an education. Colleges have tailored too many courses in the direction of low standards. Both colleges and the financial institutions have gotten use to the federal backed money along with the questionable demand for a degree and have taken advantage of the situation.

I can recall the courses I had to keep taking in order to maintain a teaching certification. I had to take courses all along. They were in some cases a money grab only. I paid the tuition and was going to get a good grade regardless. A number of the professors told us things such as every one gets a good grade if you do not miss too much sort of thing. The state required that I take the class hours and the colleges took my money.

 

[bootlegger]

Hello; In some respect the federal backed student loan program has been the easy way for those of us without other means to go to college. The program helped me as I did not have money of my own and very little financial help from my parents. I could not have borrowed from a bank on my own. I went to college in 1965 to 1970 so there has been a path like you describe. Best I can recall the interest rate was fair and the repayment was spread out over ten years. I think I had a few months grace before having to start a repayment program.
I guess this thread has helped me understand that the federal student loan program has been a fair and easy way for those of us with the need of financial assistance. What I now call a sweetheart deal.
Since my time some serious flaws have worked there way into the process. Too many make poor choices about a major in terms of making a living after college. Too many borrow too much and perhaps spend on things unrelated to getting an education. Colleges have tailored too many courses in the direction of low standards. Both colleges and the financial institutions have gotten use to the federal backed money along with the questionable demand for a degree and have taken advantage of the situation.

I can recall the courses I had to keep taking in order to maintain a teaching certification. I had to take courses all along. They were in some cases a money grab only. I paid the tuition and was going to get a good grade regardless. A number of the professors told us things such as every one gets a good grade if you do not miss too much sort of thing. The state required that I take the class hours and the colleges took my money.

Federal loans aren't easy, and they don't cover the cheap part. Most of the time, you will need a cosigner with credit history. Even if you manage to get the loans, they don't help reduce the cost of education. That is the key issue. If you are a good student, you shouldn't have to leave college owing $70-200k+ to any debtor (be it private or federal). Think about the poor kids who graduated 3-4 years after me. They left school in the midst of a recession. Almost no one was hiring, and the companies that were basically ditched most of the intern programs. These kids were basically entering the world with no professional career, thousands in debt, and desperate for anything to keep food on the table. If you didn't have parents to fall back on, you were screwed. Grace period for federal loans was 6 months, but the recession lasted far longer than that. Even as an experienced professional, it took me over 6 months to find a job during that era. Loans are not the solution, even if the rates are fair. We need a means to provide the option of higher education cheaply or freely to the students willing to put in the work. There is a reason we are falling behind the rest of the world in education.

 

[sk47]

Federal loans aren't easy, and they don't cover the cheap part. Most of the time, you will need a cosigner with credit history. Even if you manage to get the loans, they don't help reduce the cost of education. That is the key issue. If you are a good student, you shouldn't have to leave college owing $70-200k+ to any debtor (be it private or federal). Think about the poor kids who graduated 3-4 years after me. They left school in the midst of a recession. Almost no one was hiring, and the companies that were basically ditched most of the intern programs. These kids were basically entering the world with no professional career, thousands in debt, and desperate for anything to keep food on the table. If you didn't have parents to fall back on, you were screwed. Grace period for federal loans was 6 months, but the recession lasted far longer than that. Even as an experienced professional, it took me over 6 months to find a job during that era. Loans are not the solution, even if the rates are fair. We need a means to provide the option of higher education cheaply or freely to the students willing to put in the work. There is a reason we are falling behind the rest of the world in education.

Hello; Not sure what is involved with getting a federal backed loan now. May be there is extra paperwork or something. My point about the loans is at least they are available. Without the federal program many, if not most, banks would not lend to some at all. I used the word "easy" as part of a response to a prior post.
I did not have to have a co-signer back in the 1960's. There was no one who would co-sign. Maybe things have changed. I was one of the poor back then. In fact I was "lucky" in that I got a teaching job right away. Maybe because I had a degree in a needed subject, Biology. In 1970 there was a recession. President Nixon had put into place a wage freeze. I worked for nearly two years without the normal step raises other teachers had been getting before.

I do not agree with the loans are not the solution part, especially if the rates are fair. Since this concept has been covered well already in this thread I will not repeat all the sound reasons.

I may come back to the falling behind the world in education.

Saved the key issue being the cost of education for my last comment. Let me use an analogy of buying a car. Say there is a new car which is popular and the demand is high. Dealers will at the very least hold the line on the MSRP or may even put some ADP (Added Dealer Profit) stickers on the price.
I am a saver. Meaning I save up to have the money to buy most things outright. Use to be that put me at the top of the prefered customer list. Now with the kick backs the dealers get from a loan, a paying customer is at the bottom of the list. I have had dealers only agree to the price I want if I would finance. Had deals fall apart since I will not finance.
So for a car in demand with lots of people willing to finance to get it the dealers have no reason to be reasonable. If I walk away soon someone else will buy the car at inflated prices along with having to pay interest.
Similar to the demand for college degrees the last few decades. No shortage of students knocking on their doors and the Federal government is willing to provide the money. So over the last years costs to students has been going up faster than most everything else.
Now degrees are like models and brands of cars. Some are lemons and some are classics. The money spent on a lemon can be similar to a classic model. Same for a degree. Pick a good degree and it will hold up for decades. Pick a lemon and it may be in the shop the first year more than on the road. Too many have been picking lemon degrees and paying big money for them.

 

[RonsterGT]

I am so angry at the direction of this country. zero accountability of our own actions. run debt up, zero consequences, don't worry. it'l be forgiven and free housing free healthcare. freeee everything guys.

Turning into Canada, and that's not a good thing.
I'm a Canadian, and currently we are 1-2 steps away from full on communism. There is a plan under The Great Reset to forgive all debt in exchange for giving up personal property ownership priviledges.
Coincidentally, this was leaked shortly after our government banned all AR-15 style rifles - over 1500+ models. I have $40K in firepower sitting in my safe that I can't shoot legally any more. F*ckin Liberals.
They're gonna try for handguns next. I wish we had something like the Second Amendment. Everything here is a "priviledge" not a right.
I wish for a Prime Minister who would have enough balls to sever ties with The Commonwealth.
I'd like to see us join the USA to be honest.

 

[jtmat]

Turning into Canada, and that's not a good thing.
I'm a Canadian, and currently we are 1-2 steps away from full on communism. There is a plan under The Great Reset to forgive all debt in exchange for giving up personal property ownership priviledges.
Coincidentally, this was leaked shortly after our government banned all AR-15 style rifles - over 1500+ models. I have $40K in firepower sitting in my safe that I can't shoot legally any more. F*ckin Liberals.
They're gonna try for handguns next. I wish we had something like the Second Amendment. Everything here is a "priviledge" not a right.
I wish for a Prime Minister who would have enough balls to sever ties with The Commonwealth.
I'd like to see us join the USA to be honest.

We got someone for ya... will be free tomorrow.

He can bring a boatload trailer park of knuckleheads with him.

 

[RonsterGT]

We got someone for ya... will be free tomorrow. Around noon or so.

MCGA! I'm all for it!

 

[bootlegger]

Hello; Not sure what is involved with getting a federal backed loan now. May be there is extra paperwork or something. My point about the loans is at least they are available. Without the federal program many, if not most, banks would not lend to some at all. I used the word "easy" as part of a response to a prior post.
I did not have to have a co-signer back in the 1960's. There was no one who would co-sign. Maybe things have changed. I was one of the poor back then. In fact I was "lucky" in that I got a teaching job right away. Maybe because I had a degree in a needed subject, Biology. In 1970 there was a recession. President Nixon had put into place a wage freeze. I worked for nearly two years without the normal step raises other teachers had been getting before.

I do not agree with the loans are not the solution part, especially if the rates are fair. Since this concept has been covered well already in this thread I will not repeat all the sound reasons.

I may come back to the falling behind the world in education.

Saved the key issue being the cost of education for my last comment. Let me use an analogy of buying a car. Say there is a new car which is popular and the demand is high. Dealers will at the very least hold the line on the MSRP or may even put some ADP (Added Dealer Profit) stickers on the price.
I am a saver. Meaning I save up to have the money to buy most things outright. Use to be that put me at the top of the prefered customer list. Now with the kick backs the dealers get from a loan, a paying customer is at the bottom of the list. I have had dealers only agree to the price I want if I would finance. Had deals fall apart since I will not finance.
So for a car in demand with lots of people willing to finance to get it the dealers have no reason to be reasonable. If I walk away soon someone else will buy the car at inflated prices along with having to pay interest.
Similar to the demand for college degrees the last few decades. No shortage of students knocking on their doors and the Federal government is willing to provide the money. So over the last years costs to students has been going up faster than most everything else.
Now degrees are like models and brands of cars. Some are lemons and some are classics. The money spent on a lemon can be similar to a classic model. Same for a degree. Pick a good degree and it will hold up for decades. Pick a lemon and it may be in the shop the first year more than on the road. Too many have been picking lemon degrees and paying big money for them.

You are about 30-40 years away from understanding what it takes to get a loan and how much school costs overall. You haven't had to deal with these modern costs, and as you said, you had a lot of luck in your own career. What about kids who don't have that luck. You can get a federal loan without a cosigner, but they rarely pay for all the costs involved. And you have to prove financial need to get the best rates, which won't work out in your benefit if you have parents who aren't completely broke. I had federal loans to attend WVU school of engineering. However, it only paid tuition and part of my apartment costs. Much of my rent, books, and other various costs had to be covered using private loans. That requires a cosigner if you have no credit history. This gets back to the reason loans, even if they have reasonable interest, are not the solution.

Comparing education to nice cars is a bit silly. You can get from A to B with a car costing $3k, just like you can with a car costing $30k. Education isn't even remotely similar. Many career paths require accredited universities, so you don't have any cheap community college opportunities. You are stuck spending a minimum of $40-50k for a state university, which is debt you must start paying 6 months after graduation. Again, this gets back to my point about creating a cheap or free option for students who want to put in the work.

In regards to "lemon" degrees, you are really exaggerating the issue there. Only 2 out of 5 graduates report not using their degree. That doesn't mean they didn't use any of their education though. I would blame that on piss poor capabilities of high schools and guidance counselors when it comes to directing students. Students should be well informed on what careers are in high demand. They should know their own strengths and weaknesses. And they should get that nice push, no matter what direction they want to go. Parents aren't always there to do their job.

 

[NFG19]

A bit off topic but the $15 minimum wage is back as well!

 

[FreePenguin]

Joy. So now I can quit my real job, and work some dead beat job, do nothing and make a pretty large amount.

 

[FreePenguin]

nice jobs in my area are 15-18.

If I’d make the same amount working some crap job why work harder?

alright increase my states minimum wage of 7.25 to 15. Butwait til everyone elsedoubles their wages

thenmy area doubles rent.

I think that’s fair.Balance out the increased min wage. Intro jobs shouldn’t make anywhere near established jobs sorry

 

[Jimmy Dean]

Joy. So now I can quit my real job, and work some dead beat job, do nothing and make a pretty large amount.

if it passes I'm going to have to have to go have a talk with my boss. he can either pay me the same as 5 burger flippers, or he can go hire 5 burger flippers and see if they can do my job.

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